From: Brimstone on
David Taylor wrote:
> On 2008-06-22, Brimstone <brimstone520-ng02(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> David Taylor wrote:
>>> On 2008-06-22, Brimstone <brimstone520-ng02(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> David Taylor wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Which have all been proven, repeatedly, to be complete bollocks
>>>>> when the same people are asked to compare products under
>>>>> scientific double-blind conditions (i.e. where their
>>>>> pre-conceptions _can't_ affect the result).
>>>>
>>>> How does that explain his wife's and son's comments?
>>>
>>> They weren't made under double blind conditions.
>>
>> But they didn't know which cables were which at the time they
>> listened.
>
> Yes, that's "single blind".

And how does that compromise their perception that a device of one
specification gives a different sound to a similar device with a different
specification of they don't know which was fitted at the time?


From: David Taylor on
On 2008-06-22, Brimstone <brimstone520-ng02(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> David Taylor wrote:
>> On 2008-06-22, Brimstone <brimstone520-ng02(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>> David Taylor wrote:
>>>> On 2008-06-22, Brimstone <brimstone520-ng02(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> David Taylor wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Which have all been proven, repeatedly, to be complete bollocks
>>>>>> when the same people are asked to compare products under
>>>>>> scientific double-blind conditions (i.e. where their
>>>>>> pre-conceptions _can't_ affect the result).
>>>>>
>>>>> How does that explain his wife's and son's comments?
>>>>
>>>> They weren't made under double blind conditions.
>>>
>>> But they didn't know which cables were which at the time they
>>> listened.
>>
>> Yes, that's "single blind".
>
> And how does that compromise their perception that a device of one
> specification gives a different sound to a similar device with a different
> specification of they don't know which was fitted at the time?

There are numerous examples of single blind testing giving incorrect
results, due to the subject being influenced by the experimenter.

For example, a horse that could do arithmetic -- as long as his owner
was there: http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=384

As Ray knew which product he prefered, he almost certainly influenced
his wife's and son's expectations, either consciously or unconsciously.

--
David Taylor
From: Raymond Keattch on
On 22/06/2008 11:36:31, David Taylor wrote:
> On 2008-06-22, Raymond Keattch <ray.keattch(a)nowhere.com> wrote:
>>
>> I am not the manufacturer trying to blind you with science and neither do I
>> gain financialy from you agreeing about the product. However, I am an
>> individual who has used the products discussed on my own car over the past
>> year.
>
> But you have proven yourself repeatedly in this thread to lack any
> sense of objectivity. It's all wooley subjective richness and deepness
> and clarity...
>
> Which have all been proven, repeatedly, to be complete bollocks when the
> same people are asked to compare products under scientific double-blind
> conditions (i.e. where their pre-conceptions _can't_ affect the result).

Can you explain your criteria for buying a product to improve the finish of
an item? Do you put yourself through this double blind rubbish everytime you
want to buy such a product?

Maybe you try a few and pick the one you like the best?

What are these pre-conceptions you describe? I buy product A and apply it to
the car. I buy and apply product B to the car. I make a judgment on what I
like best, by what I see on the car and what I as a person want from a
finish.

--
MrBitsy
Rover 75 CDTi
From: David Taylor on
On 2008-06-22, Raymond Keattch <ray.keattch(a)nowhere.com> wrote:
> On 22/06/2008 11:36:31, David Taylor wrote:
>> On 2008-06-22, Raymond Keattch <ray.keattch(a)nowhere.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I am not the manufacturer trying to blind you with science and neither do I
>>> gain financialy from you agreeing about the product. However, I am an
>>> individual who has used the products discussed on my own car over the past
>>> year.
>>
>> But you have proven yourself repeatedly in this thread to lack any
>> sense of objectivity. It's all wooley subjective richness and deepness
>> and clarity...
>>
>> Which have all been proven, repeatedly, to be complete bollocks when the
>> same people are asked to compare products under scientific double-blind
>> conditions (i.e. where their pre-conceptions _can't_ affect the result).
>
> Can you explain your criteria for buying a product to improve the finish of
> an item? Do you put yourself through this double blind rubbish everytime you
> want to buy such a product?
>
> Maybe you try a few and pick the one you like the best?
>
> What are these pre-conceptions you describe? I buy product A and apply it to
> the car. I buy and apply product B to the car. I make a judgment on what I
> like best, by what I see on the car and what I as a person want from a
> finish.

I tend not to buy things based on "finish" and "shine" and "richness".
I certainly would never spend £150, or even £30 on a piece of wire. I
go for something that is good value & works, how it "feels" comes a
distant second.

--
David Taylor
From: Raymond Keattch on
On 22/06/2008 11:41:34, David Taylor wrote:
> On 2008-06-21, Raymond Keattch <ray.keattch(a)nowhere.com> wrote:
>> On 21/06/2008 17:51:21, Adrian wrote:
>>> "Raymond Keattch" <ray.keattch(a)nowhere.com> gurgled happily, sounding much
>>> like they were saying:
>>>
>>>>> I would _so_ love to get you to do a blind test.
>>>
>>>> No point.
>>>
>>> For you to say that, you obviously can't have much faith in there being a
>>> real, discernible, difference.
>>
>> There will be no agreement. I have listened to each of the interconnects for
>> the last two years - I know they each have an effect on the sound quality. As
>> I said before, they are the cheaper pair, I don't have any HiFi friends, I am
>> not a HiFi snob and I do not relate sound quality to value. A good case in
>> point are my speakers. I have owned everything from �100 to �800 a pair. By
>> far the best sounding speakers (they can sound different can't they? After
>> all, they are just cones) are my current pair that cost me �200
>
> If there is a difference, you would be able to identify it in a double
> blind test. If you can't, there is no discernable difference.

As I said before, the sound difference may not be the interconnects - it may
be the affect they are having on the individual components I am connecting
them to. It may be the manufacturer has included something in the plugs to
change the way the signal passes down the wire.

I really don't care what is going on - with the cheaper pair connected,
vocals are nearer where I sit. With the expensive ones in, vocals are further
away from the seating position. The cheaper ones give a much more liflike
sound, where the expensive ones are clinical in the way they convey the music
- to the point they are hard to listen to after a while.

>>>> I have two pairs that sound very different to each other in my system.
>>>
>>> So you should be able to easily identify them in a blind test.

I don't care!

It may be the smell from the cable interfering with my brain waves. Maybe the
colour has an affect on my central nervous system, making me susceptible to
audible silliness. I really don't care.

What I do care about, is sitting down in the evening when everyone has gone
to bed, and enjoying my music with cable A plugged in.

>> Are you willing to admit they sound different to each other? No, of course
>> you wouldn't.
>
> If you can identify them in a double blind test -- of course! But you
> won't be able to because there IS NO REAL DIFFERENCE!

There is a big difference to the way the system as a whole conveys music.
Maybe I have an amlifier problem that is fixed with one interconnect but
magnified with another. Maybe our electricity supply is flawed and
interconnect A somehow improves it - the important thing is the way the
system as a whole conveys music to me.

>> You have fixed views that would say something is wrong with one
>> of the interconnects, because wire is wire. Maybe I like one pair because the
>> sheath is blue or maybe I don't like the smell of the other? I am reallny not
>> concerned with what voodo is happening - I like the music.
>
> Oh OK, but don't tell me the sound is different -- your perception of it
> can be whatever you like. Me, I'm happy not having to spend �180 to
> find the "right" conductors...

Then you may well be missing out on a better sounding system through your
fixed views.


--
MrBitsy
Rover 75 CDTi