From: Raymond Keattch on
On 24/06/2008 10:46:50, Ian Dalziel wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Jun 2008 21:52:14 +0100, "Raymond Keattch"
> <ray.keattch(a)nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>> I have ended up with �250 floorstanding speakers, �500 amp and the biggest
>>expense was a �1300 cd player.
>
> What do you polish it with?

A duster


--
MrBitsy
Rover 75 CDTi
From: Raymond Keattch on
On 24/06/2008 18:34:50, Mike Henry wrote:
> In <4HV7k.45263$zs1.6558(a)newsfe28.ams2>, "Raymond Keattch"
> <ray.keattch(a)nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>>On 23/06/2008 22:54:02, Mike Henry wrote:
>>> In <7746c121-5db9-42f8-8678-6f414f0c37c7(a)a1g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, The
>>> Real Doctor <ubergeekian(a)googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 23 Jun, 19:06, Peter Parry <pe...(a)wpp.ltd.uk> wrote:
>>>>Oh dear god.
>>>>
>>>>"Both cables use copper which has been specially developed to handle
>>>>mains voltages, and use insulation which has less of a degrading
>>>>effect on the mains current. The Palladianâ„¢ models feature innovative
>>>>‘SWR enhancement’ technology that dampens musically destructive
>>>>electrical standing wave reflections."
>>>>
>>>>There is a line between obsessive geekery and cold-hearted
>>>>exploitation of the mentally ill - and that company is way, way, way
>>>>over the line.
>>>
>>> Indeed it is, which is why it is my duty to post the following rather
>>> satisfying link:
>>> <http://www.asa.org.uk/asa/adjudications/Public/TF_ADJ_44177.htm>>> What I find amazing is that russ
andrews actually tried to defend
>>> themselves instead of holding their hands up from the start; also that
>>> they thought that the investigating scientist would be fobbed off with
>>> rubbish posing as evidence!
>>
>>I don't subscribe to either end of this scale, from the wild claims about
>>wire properties, to those who say any old bit of wire will do.
>
> No. The scale goes from claims and opinions (of all types) on one end, to
> rigorously peer-reviewed Science on the other. It's not a scale which has
> opinions at both ends, that would be pointless. (By the way, I don't
> remember people from the sensible camp advocating using absolutely *any*
> piece of wire. The opinion that *any* old bit of wire will do is just as
> scientifically flawed as all the snake-oil opinions.)
>
> In the case of russ andrews, they found this out to their cost when the
> ASA employed a real Scientist to check the facts - please read the article
> again. It also mentions the scientific "ABX" test method (double-blind)
> which was mentioned earlier in this thread.

Again, science comes to the mix - when are people going to understand many of
us don't give a damm! If we are going to think logically about this, I would
find it incredibly odd that nothing changes the way an electrical signal gets
from one end of an interconnect to the other. The wires are wrapped in
different materials, twisted in various different ways ETC.

Sure, the manufacturers will make some quite silly claims, and I for one
won't believe a word of it. However, when I try two different interconnects,
and I hear two very different ways my system conveys the music, I will use
the one I prefer. SOMETHING is making the interconnects convey the music in a
different way - maybe one of the interconnects has a manufacturing flaw - who
cares!



--
MrBitsy
Rover 75 CDTi
From: Steve Firth on
Mike Henry <{$mrtickle$}@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> No. The scale goes from claims and opinions (of all types) on one end, to
> rigorously peer-reviewed Science on the other. It's not a scale which has
> opinions at both ends, that would be pointless. (By the way, I don't
> remember people from the sensible camp advocating using absolutely *any*
> piece of wire. The opinion that *any* old bit of wire will do is just as
> scientifically flawed as all the snake-oil opinions.)

The "I can tell the difference between a �30 and a �150 cable" bunch
amuse me because they seem to have no concept of how the signal is
conveyed within each of the audio devices in the chain. Have any of them
every seen the wire used to take the signal from a pickup cartridge down
the tone arm? Or perhaps they think that inside a CD player discrete
components are wired point to point using Litz wire?

Or that the same occurs inside amplifiers and loudspeakers?

The windings on a voice coil can't possibly be in ultrafine enamelled
solid cored copper wire, can they?
From: Raymond Keattch on
On 24/06/2008 22:26:58, wrote:
> Raymond Keattch <ray.keattch(a)nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>> Again, science comes to the mix - when are people going to understand many of
>> us don't give a damm!
>
> Oh indeed, scientific illiteracy is widespread and the illiterates are
> invariably proud of their ignorance.
>
>> If we are going to think logically about this,
>
> Well it would be start to think logically about it.
>
>> I would find it incredibly odd that nothing changes the way an electrical
>> signal gets from one end of an interconnect to the other. The wires are
>> wrapped in different materials, twisted in various different ways ETC.
>
> And you failed. to think logically about it.

Explain how it makes no difference.

>> Sure, the manufacturers will make some quite silly claims, and I for one
>> won't believe a word of it. However, when I try two different interconnects,
>> and I hear two very different ways my system conveys the music, I will use
>> the one I prefer. SOMETHING is making the interconnects convey the music in a
>> different way - maybe one of the interconnects has a manufacturing flaw - who
>> cares!
>
> A manufacturing flaw is one possibility. But you could tell that if you
> were performing properly controlled trials. Oh Damn! That science thing
> getting in the way again. Another possibility is that there is no
> difference and what you "hear" is entirely a placebo effect.

I don't need controlled trails to hear what components sound like it my
house. I can't listen to the system for a whole evening with the expensive
interconnects in - the bass is lumpy, soundstage closed in and vocals pushed
back. The cheaper ones I can have in the system for ever, because the
sounstage is more realistic, bass is tighter and vocals are pushed well
foward.

I wonder why I prefer the cheaper ones?

> Are you claimig to have perfect pitch and several years experience of
> A/B comparisons between live performances and a wide range of audio
> reproduction equipment?

I have owned approx 10 amps, 10 pairs of speakers and 4 CD players. I have
tried three pairs of interconnects in the system. I go to approx 15 classical
concerts a year, and I listen to about 3 hours music per day. I have compared
equipement at dealers totalling probably 50 hours. I have no idea why you
think I need to compare more products or have perfect pitch - I listen to my
music, in my house on a system that conveys music in a pleasing way to my
ears.

Getting back to wires, should I replace my interconnects? If so, why?

--
MrBitsy
Rover 75 CDTi
From: Raymond Keattch on
On 24/06/2008 23:35:39, Mike Henry wrote:

>>The difficulty is that there are a number of possible reasons, so without a
>>careful test you can't always decide which 'reason' is responsible.

Yep, that is why I have tried the speakers in many different positions.

>>One example: Our hearing physiology varies with time of day, tiredness, if
>>we have eaten/drunk recently, etc. So the same physical sounds will be
>>perceived as 'different' at different times and in different circumstances.

Agreed.

>>Another: Having already listened to some music produces physiological
>>changes in our hearing, so that listening to something else then sounds
>>different to if we hadn't just heard something.

Agreed

>>Another: We didn't put our head in exactly the same place as before, and we
>>experience a different room acoustic. Quite remarkable how small a movement
>>can be heard if you experiment with this.

Absolutely - I can move my speakers an inch and hear the difference. If the
sofa I sit in is moved left or right by a few inches, the sound changes.

>>Another: On one occasion the room door was open, but on the next it was
>>closed. Changes the acoustic - particularly at LF. Since LF penetrates
>>deepest into the cochlea this affects hearing of higher frequencies.

Agreed again. I always listen to music with the hall door closed, otherwise
the bass and soundstage are affected.

>>Another: In one case there was some steady low-level low frequency hum or
>>noise. Too low in level to be particularly noticable. Indeed, we tend to
>>either mentally 'tune out' or 'focus on' these sorts of continuous noises
>>depending on other factors. e.g. now I stop and think about it I can hear
>>the noises my computer is making. Hadn't noticed them at all until I tried.
>>But such backgrounds can - particularly at LF or HF - then affect hearing
>>as above.

Agreed - I always turn off the Virgin Media box because of the low level hum
it produces.

>>The point here is that there is a long, long list of such possibilities.
>>The above focuses on just one area - physiological effects. But there are
>>others. e.g. a change in volume level being perceived as a change of some
>>other sort.

Agreed.

>>This is why many of the claims simply don't stand up. The claimant usually
>>hasn't bothered to take any of the long list of factors into account. They
>>are well known to professionals in the relevant areas. But amateurs tend to
>>jump to conclusions without knowing about them, and then fall back on
>>insisting they are right, or "its my opinion/experience" when their ideas
>>are challenged.
>> end of Jim's text
>
> Oh but I forgot, you don't care why it sounds different to you, and you
> are proud that you don't care, and you resist science and ABX tests
> because the outcome exposes you to the risk of showing that you could be
> mistaken. Good for you! :-(

I do care about all the points raised above, so over several years I have
adjusted my room and speaker position, closed doors etc. This is all
understood. I also understand interconnect manufacturers make daft claims and
charge outrageous sums for wire.

What I don't care about is the claim that I can't hear the difference in the
two interconnects I have tried. You posted a long list of things that can
affect sound - physiological effects being one of them, so why is the
physiological effect of owning a particular interconnect not valid? All in
the mind or not, I don't like the sound of my system with one interconnect
in, but I like it with the other - as long as I ENJOY the sound, why do I
need to take any sort of scientific test?



--
MrBitsy
Rover 75 CDTi