Detrimental consequences of car use - an EU wide problem.
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From: bugbear on 5 May 2010 04:07 Doug wrote: > This was posted to the carfree network list and might be of interest > to vulnerable road users. Also the bit about Greek police is > revealing. > > "We all know Assume much? BugBear
From: ash on 5 May 2010 05:54 On 5 May, 07:00, Doug <jag...(a)riseup.net> wrote: > This was posted to the carfree network list and might be of interest > to vulnerable road users. Also the bit about Greek police is > revealing. > > More: > > http://groups.google.co.uk/group/carfree_network/browse_frm/thread/cb... > > -- > Car Free Citieshttp://www.carfree.com/ > Carfree Cities proposes a delightful solution > to the vexing problem of urban automobiles. You have to ask yourself why these mopeds and cars outnumber bicycles by 100 to 1 in Athens Doug Can you guess why or does it need to be spelt out ?
From: Doug on 5 May 2010 08:48 On 5 May, 08:30, Mike P <french...(a)googlemail.com> wrote: > On Wed, 05 May 2010 00:23:11 -0700, Doug sang, in the style of Bill > Bailey: > > > > > > > On 5 May, 08:04, Derek C <del.copel...(a)tiscali.co.uk> wrote: > >> On May 5, 7:00 am, Doug <jag...(a)riseup.net> wrote: > > >> > This was posted to the carfree network list and might be of interest > >> > to vulnerable road users. Also the bit about Greek police is > >> > revealing. > > >> > "We all know that one of the most detrimental consequence of car use > >> > in the cities is > >> > the huge proportion of unbuilt space dedicated to their needs, > >> > leaving only a tiny > >> > slice of free space for the pedestrians and other human activities. > >> > It is > >> > reasonable, moving towards carfree cities, to try to increase these > >> > pedestrian > >> > spaces on expense of the part dedicated to car use. However it > >> > happens often quite > >> > the opposite, and even the few pedestrian spaces are threatened and > >> > used by the car > >> > drivers. For example in Athens (and most greek cities) the problem of > >> > cars on > >> > pedestrian spaces is so intense that many people literary cannot walk > >> > and the most > >> > vulnerable pedestrian categories (like e.g. disables) have been > >> > disappeared from the > >> > streets and public spaces for this reason. An additional problem is > >> > the extensive > >> > use of motorcycles which not only park, but also speed up on > >> > pedestrian spaces and > >> > have superseded bicycle use (in Athens e.g. circulate nowadays over 1 > >> > million > >> > motorcycles and less than 10 thousand bicycles). These are some > >> > typical views of > >> > "sidewalks" and "pedestrianized" street in > >> > Athens:http://www.pezh.gr/images/alexandras.jpghttp://www.pezh.gr/ > images/mit... > >> > To put things in the right perspective, this is actually a case of > >> > violence by the > >> > car and motorcycle drivers against the pedestrians, and mostly > >> > against the more > >> > vulnerable among them (disabled, elderly, small children etc) > > >> > Apart from the pressures to the local authorities to handle the > >> > issue, we addressed > >> > also to the European Commission. Our request can be found here: > > >> >http://www.pezh.gr/docs/EE72008_en.htm > > >> > and the reply we received here: > > >> >http://www.pezh.gr/docs/EE72008a.htm > >> > We also tried to apply to the european ombudsman, but without avail > >> > (btw he happened > >> > to be greek) > > >> > Commission's "advice" included in their reply `is childish and > >> > contradictory. Like > >> > Pontii Pilati they leave the matter to the police (what a great > >> > advice!). But the > >> > greek police is actually the main culprit of this violence against > >> > the pedestrians. > >> > Although otherwise very keen on shooting at unarmed adolescents or > >> > torturing > >> > desolate immigrants, when it comes to the protection of pedestrians > >> > they are > >> > completely reluctant, and they avoid to intervene, even when they > >> > happen to be > >> > present - the refuse to do so, even when asked for. To use their own > >> > words, they > >> > want to show "clemency" to the illegal drivers who violate pedestrian > >> > rights. (if > >> > someone can read greek, may have a look > >> > athttp://www.pezh.gr/docs/astynkatapez2c.htmorhttp://www.pezh.gr/ > docs/a...) > >> > Of course to the pedestrians who cannot > >> > walk, even on these few spaces supposedly left for them by the > >> > motorised traffic, or > >> > fall victims of car "accidents" (and are accused afterwards by them > >> > as responsible) > >> > they have no mercy. > >> > As for the judges, they are the basic pillar of the greek > >> > corruptocracy. They are > >> > relentless to petty criminals, but ready to acquit any big crook > >> > (like those who led > >> > greece to bankrupt). They are totally dependent on the government who > >> > appoints the > >> > judges of the high courts (and who, in turn, control strictly the > >> > rest of the > >> > judiciary) and most of them are deeply corrupted. When I applied to > >> > the court few > >> > years ago, they issued a decision according to which, whenever a > >> > driver doesn't find > >> > a parking place, it is reasonable to park on pedestrian spaces! > > >> > The European Commission's hypocrisy is gloriously manifested when > >> > they finance this > >> > administration, they implicitly accuse, to construct "sidewalks" like > >> > this: > > >> >http://www.pezh.gr/docs/zaxarof.htm > > >> > or > > >> >http://www.pezh.gr/docs/loudr.htm > > >> > where no sensible pedestrian (and, even more, disabled) could ever > >> > walk. Why do they > >> > finance motorways and other car use facilities when the > >> > administration confess they > >> > are unable to guarantee the proper use of cars? > > >> > While on this regard the situation is particularly bad in Greece > >> > (probably the worst > >> > in Europe), there are also many other cities with similar problems. > >> > Actually, to > >> > some degree, the problem of respect of pedestrian (and bicyclist) > >> > rights and spaces, > >> > reside in every country. As an international movement we may be more > >> > influential > >> > towards international entities like the European Commission, than > >> > when we act > >> > separately. So, my proposal is to plan and implement interventions to > >> > the European > >> > Commission (a kind of lobbying) for the establishment of european > >> > policies for the > >> > extension, but even more for the protection and preservation of > >> > pedestrian and > >> > bicycle spaces." > > >> > More: > > >> >http://groups.google.co.uk/group/carfree_network/browse_frm/thread/ > cb... > > >> As far as I am concerned, anything that reduces the amount of space for > >> you, your illegal e-bike and your Critical Mass buddies is a good > >> thing! > > > And here was me thinking that someone like you would be pleased to learn > > about a country which is even worse than ours! There is no pleasing some > > people. > > Have you ever been there Doug? > No fortunately. > > I lived there for years. A lot of the article is bollocks. Some of the > pictures, especially the first two, are *ancient* > > I haver gathered the police are pretty bad there though especially towards public protesters.. Its countries like Greece which makes UK look good, even when it isn't. -- UK Radical Campaigns www.zing.icom43.net One man's democracy is another man's Police State.
From: ash on 5 May 2010 09:58 On 5 May, 13:48, Doug <jag...(a)riseup.net> wrote: > On 5 May, 08:30, Mike P <french...(a)googlemail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Wed, 05 May 2010 00:23:11 -0700, Doug sang, in the style of Bill > > Bailey: > > > > On 5 May, 08:04, Derek C <del.copel...(a)tiscali.co.uk> wrote: > > >> On May 5, 7:00 am, Doug <jag...(a)riseup.net> wrote: > > > >> > This was posted to the carfree network list and might be of interest > > >> > to vulnerable road users. Also the bit about Greek police is > > >> > revealing. > > > >> > "We all know that one of the most detrimental consequence of car use > > >> > in the cities is > > >> > the huge proportion of unbuilt space dedicated to their needs, > > >> > leaving only a tiny > > >> > slice of free space for the pedestrians and other human activities.. > > >> > It is > > >> > reasonable, moving towards carfree cities, to try to increase these > > >> > pedestrian > > >> > spaces on expense of the part dedicated to car use. However it > > >> > happens often quite > > >> > the opposite, and even the few pedestrian spaces are threatened and > > >> > used by the car > > >> > drivers. For example in Athens (and most greek cities) the problem of > > >> > cars on > > >> > pedestrian spaces is so intense that many people literary cannot walk > > >> > and the most > > >> > vulnerable pedestrian categories (like e.g. disables) have been > > >> > disappeared from the > > >> > streets and public spaces for this reason. An additional problem is > > >> > the extensive > > >> > use of motorcycles which not only park, but also speed up on > > >> > pedestrian spaces and > > >> > have superseded bicycle use (in Athens e.g. circulate nowadays over 1 > > >> > million > > >> > motorcycles and less than 10 thousand bicycles). These are some > > >> > typical views of > > >> > "sidewalks" and "pedestrianized" street in > > >> > Athens:http://www.pezh.gr/images/alexandras.jpghttp://www.pezh.gr/ > > images/mit... > > >> > To put things in the right perspective, this is actually a case of > > >> > violence by the > > >> > car and motorcycle drivers against the pedestrians, and mostly > > >> > against the more > > >> > vulnerable among them (disabled, elderly, small children etc) > > > >> > Apart from the pressures to the local authorities to handle the > > >> > issue, we addressed > > >> > also to the European Commission. Our request can be found here: > > > >> >http://www.pezh.gr/docs/EE72008_en.htm > > > >> > and the reply we received here: > > > >> >http://www.pezh.gr/docs/EE72008a.htm > > >> > We also tried to apply to the european ombudsman, but without avail > > >> > (btw he happened > > >> > to be greek) > > > >> > Commission's "advice" included in their reply `is childish and > > >> > contradictory. Like > > >> > Pontii Pilati they leave the matter to the police (what a great > > >> > advice!). But the > > >> > greek police is actually the main culprit of this violence against > > >> > the pedestrians. > > >> > Although otherwise very keen on shooting at unarmed adolescents or > > >> > torturing > > >> > desolate immigrants, when it comes to the protection of pedestrians > > >> > they are > > >> > completely reluctant, and they avoid to intervene, even when they > > >> > happen to be > > >> > present - the refuse to do so, even when asked for. To use their own > > >> > words, they > > >> > want to show "clemency" to the illegal drivers who violate pedestrian > > >> > rights. (if > > >> > someone can read greek, may have a look > > >> > athttp://www.pezh.gr/docs/astynkatapez2c.htmorhttp://www.pezh.gr/ > > docs/a...) > > >> > Of course to the pedestrians who cannot > > >> > walk, even on these few spaces supposedly left for them by the > > >> > motorised traffic, or > > >> > fall victims of car "accidents" (and are accused afterwards by them > > >> > as responsible) > > >> > they have no mercy. > > >> > As for the judges, they are the basic pillar of the greek > > >> > corruptocracy. They are > > >> > relentless to petty criminals, but ready to acquit any big crook > > >> > (like those who led > > >> > greece to bankrupt). They are totally dependent on the government who > > >> > appoints the > > >> > judges of the high courts (and who, in turn, control strictly the > > >> > rest of the > > >> > judiciary) and most of them are deeply corrupted. When I applied to > > >> > the court few > > >> > years ago, they issued a decision according to which, whenever a > > >> > driver doesn't find > > >> > a parking place, it is reasonable to park on pedestrian spaces! > > > >> > The European Commission's hypocrisy is gloriously manifested when > > >> > they finance this > > >> > administration, they implicitly accuse, to construct "sidewalks" like > > >> > this: > > > >> >http://www.pezh.gr/docs/zaxarof.htm > > > >> > or > > > >> >http://www.pezh.gr/docs/loudr.htm > > > >> > where no sensible pedestrian (and, even more, disabled) could ever > > >> > walk. Why do they > > >> > finance motorways and other car use facilities when the > > >> > administration confess they > > >> > are unable to guarantee the proper use of cars? > > > >> > While on this regard the situation is particularly bad in Greece > > >> > (probably the worst > > >> > in Europe), there are also many other cities with similar problems.. > > >> > Actually, to > > >> > some degree, the problem of respect of pedestrian (and bicyclist) > > >> > rights and spaces, > > >> > reside in every country. As an international movement we may be more > > >> > influential > > >> > towards international entities like the European Commission, than > > >> > when we act > > >> > separately. So, my proposal is to plan and implement interventions to > > >> > the European > > >> > Commission (a kind of lobbying) for the establishment of european > > >> > policies for the > > >> > extension, but even more for the protection and preservation of > > >> > pedestrian and > > >> > bicycle spaces." > > > >> > More: > > > >> >http://groups.google.co.uk/group/carfree_network/browse_frm/thread/ > > cb... > > > >> As far as I am concerned, anything that reduces the amount of space for > > >> you, your illegal e-bike and your Critical Mass buddies is a good > > >> thing! > > > > And here was me thinking that someone like you would be pleased to learn > > > about a country which is even worse than ours! There is no pleasing some > > > people. > > > Have you ever been there Doug? > > No fortunately. > > > I lived there for years. A lot of the article is bollocks. Some of the > > pictures, especially the first two, are *ancient* > > I haver gathered the police are pretty bad there though especially > towards public protesters.. Its countries like Greece which makes UK > look good, even when it isn't. > > -- > UK Radical Campaignswww.zing.icom43.net > One man's democracy is another man's Police State.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Your idea of 'good' is at odds with everyone else's Doug
From: Mike P on 5 May 2010 10:24
On May 5, 1:48 pm, Doug <jag...(a)riseup.net> wrote: > On 5 May, 08:30, Mike P <french...(a)googlemail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Wed, 05 May 2010 00:23:11 -0700, Doug sang, in the style of Bill > > Bailey: > > > > On 5 May, 08:04, Derek C <del.copel...(a)tiscali.co.uk> wrote: > > >> On May 5, 7:00 am, Doug <jag...(a)riseup.net> wrote: > > > >> > This was posted to the carfree network list and might be of interest > > >> > to vulnerable road users. Also the bit about Greek police is > > >> > revealing. > > > >> > "We all know that one of the most detrimental consequence of car use > > >> > in the cities is > > >> > the huge proportion of unbuilt space dedicated to their needs, > > >> > leaving only a tiny > > >> > slice of free space for the pedestrians and other human activities.. > > >> > It is > > >> > reasonable, moving towards carfree cities, to try to increase these > > >> > pedestrian > > >> > spaces on expense of the part dedicated to car use. However it > > >> > happens often quite > > >> > the opposite, and even the few pedestrian spaces are threatened and > > >> > used by the car > > >> > drivers. For example in Athens (and most greek cities) the problem of > > >> > cars on > > >> > pedestrian spaces is so intense that many people literary cannot walk > > >> > and the most > > >> > vulnerable pedestrian categories (like e.g. disables) have been > > >> > disappeared from the > > >> > streets and public spaces for this reason. An additional problem is > > >> > the extensive > > >> > use of motorcycles which not only park, but also speed up on > > >> > pedestrian spaces and > > >> > have superseded bicycle use (in Athens e.g. circulate nowadays over 1 > > >> > million > > >> > motorcycles and less than 10 thousand bicycles). These are some > > >> > typical views of > > >> > "sidewalks" and "pedestrianized" street in > > >> > Athens:http://www.pezh.gr/images/alexandras.jpghttp://www.pezh.gr/ > > images/mit... > > >> > To put things in the right perspective, this is actually a case of > > >> > violence by the > > >> > car and motorcycle drivers against the pedestrians, and mostly > > >> > against the more > > >> > vulnerable among them (disabled, elderly, small children etc) > > > >> > Apart from the pressures to the local authorities to handle the > > >> > issue, we addressed > > >> > also to the European Commission. Our request can be found here: > > > >> >http://www.pezh.gr/docs/EE72008_en.htm > > > >> > and the reply we received here: > > > >> >http://www.pezh.gr/docs/EE72008a.htm > > >> > We also tried to apply to the european ombudsman, but without avail > > >> > (btw he happened > > >> > to be greek) > > > >> > Commission's "advice" included in their reply `is childish and > > >> > contradictory. Like > > >> > Pontii Pilati they leave the matter to the police (what a great > > >> > advice!). But the > > >> > greek police is actually the main culprit of this violence against > > >> > the pedestrians. > > >> > Although otherwise very keen on shooting at unarmed adolescents or > > >> > torturing > > >> > desolate immigrants, when it comes to the protection of pedestrians > > >> > they are > > >> > completely reluctant, and they avoid to intervene, even when they > > >> > happen to be > > >> > present - the refuse to do so, even when asked for. To use their own > > >> > words, they > > >> > want to show "clemency" to the illegal drivers who violate pedestrian > > >> > rights. (if > > >> > someone can read greek, may have a look > > >> > athttp://www.pezh.gr/docs/astynkatapez2c.htmorhttp://www.pezh.gr/ > > docs/a...) > > >> > Of course to the pedestrians who cannot > > >> > walk, even on these few spaces supposedly left for them by the > > >> > motorised traffic, or > > >> > fall victims of car "accidents" (and are accused afterwards by them > > >> > as responsible) > > >> > they have no mercy. > > >> > As for the judges, they are the basic pillar of the greek > > >> > corruptocracy. They are > > >> > relentless to petty criminals, but ready to acquit any big crook > > >> > (like those who led > > >> > greece to bankrupt). They are totally dependent on the government who > > >> > appoints the > > >> > judges of the high courts (and who, in turn, control strictly the > > >> > rest of the > > >> > judiciary) and most of them are deeply corrupted. When I applied to > > >> > the court few > > >> > years ago, they issued a decision according to which, whenever a > > >> > driver doesn't find > > >> > a parking place, it is reasonable to park on pedestrian spaces! > > > >> > The European Commission's hypocrisy is gloriously manifested when > > >> > they finance this > > >> > administration, they implicitly accuse, to construct "sidewalks" like > > >> > this: > > > >> >http://www.pezh.gr/docs/zaxarof.htm > > > >> > or > > > >> >http://www.pezh.gr/docs/loudr.htm > > > >> > where no sensible pedestrian (and, even more, disabled) could ever > > >> > walk. Why do they > > >> > finance motorways and other car use facilities when the > > >> > administration confess they > > >> > are unable to guarantee the proper use of cars? > > > >> > While on this regard the situation is particularly bad in Greece > > >> > (probably the worst > > >> > in Europe), there are also many other cities with similar problems.. > > >> > Actually, to > > >> > some degree, the problem of respect of pedestrian (and bicyclist) > > >> > rights and spaces, > > >> > reside in every country. As an international movement we may be more > > >> > influential > > >> > towards international entities like the European Commission, than > > >> > when we act > > >> > separately. So, my proposal is to plan and implement interventions to > > >> > the European > > >> > Commission (a kind of lobbying) for the establishment of european > > >> > policies for the > > >> > extension, but even more for the protection and preservation of > > >> > pedestrian and > > >> > bicycle spaces." > > > >> > More: > > > >> >http://groups.google.co.uk/group/carfree_network/browse_frm/thread/ > > cb... > > > >> As far as I am concerned, anything that reduces the amount of space for > > >> you, your illegal e-bike and your Critical Mass buddies is a good > > >> thing! > > > > And here was me thinking that someone like you would be pleased to learn > > > about a country which is even worse than ours! There is no pleasing some > > > people. > > > Have you ever been there Doug? > > No fortunately. > > > I lived there for years. A lot of the article is bollocks. Some of the > > pictures, especially the first two, are *ancient* > > I haver gathered the police are pretty bad there though especially > towards public protesters.. Its countries like Greece which makes UK > look good, even when it isn't. So that's a "no, I have no idea what I'm talking about, sorry" is it Doug? Mike P |