From: Doug on
On 5 May, 14:58, ash <ash.fil...(a)googlemail.com> wrote:
> On 5 May, 13:48, Doug <jag...(a)riseup.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 5 May, 08:30, Mike P <french...(a)googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Wed, 05 May 2010 00:23:11 -0700, Doug sang, in the style of Bill
> > > Bailey:
>
> > > > On 5 May, 08:04, Derek C <del.copel...(a)tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> > > >> On May 5, 7:00 am, Doug <jag...(a)riseup.net> wrote:
>
> > > >> > This was posted to the carfree network list and might be of interest
> > > >> > to vulnerable road users. Also the bit about Greek police is
> > > >> > revealing.
>
> > > >> > "We all know that one of the most detrimental consequence of car use
> > > >> > in the cities is
> > > >> > the huge proportion of unbuilt space dedicated to their needs,
> > > >> > leaving only a tiny
> > > >> > slice of free space for the pedestrians and other human activities.
> > > >> > It is
> > > >> > reasonable, moving towards carfree cities, to try to increase these
> > > >> > pedestrian
> > > >> > spaces on expense of the part dedicated to car use. However it
> > > >> > happens often quite
> > > >> > the opposite, and even the few pedestrian spaces are threatened and
> > > >> > used by the car
> > > >> > drivers. For example in Athens (and most greek cities) the problem of
> > > >> > cars on
> > > >> > pedestrian spaces is so intense that many people literary cannot walk
> > > >> > and the most
> > > >> > vulnerable pedestrian categories (like e.g. disables) have been
> > > >> > disappeared from the
> > > >> > streets and public spaces for this reason.  An additional problem is
> > > >> > the extensive
> > > >> > use of motorcycles which not only park, but also speed up on
> > > >> > pedestrian spaces and
> > > >> > have superseded bicycle use (in Athens e.g. circulate nowadays over 1
> > > >> > million
> > > >> > motorcycles and less than 10 thousand bicycles). These are some
> > > >> > typical views of
> > > >> > "sidewalks" and "pedestrianized" street in
> > > >> > Athens:http://www.pezh.gr/images/alexandras.jpghttp://www.pezh.gr/
> > > images/mit...
> > > >> > To put things in the right perspective, this is actually a case of
> > > >> > violence by the
> > > >> > car and motorcycle drivers against the pedestrians, and mostly
> > > >> > against the more
> > > >> > vulnerable among them (disabled, elderly, small children etc)
>
> > > >> > Apart from the pressures to the local authorities to handle the
> > > >> > issue, we addressed
> > > >> > also to the European Commission. Our request can be found here:
>
> > > >> >http://www.pezh.gr/docs/EE72008_en.htm
>
> > > >> > and the reply we received here:
>
> > > >> >http://www.pezh.gr/docs/EE72008a.htm
> > > >> > We also tried to apply to the european ombudsman, but without avail
> > > >> > (btw he happened
> > > >> > to be greek)
>
> > > >> > Commission's "advice" included in their reply `is childish and
> > > >> > contradictory. Like
> > > >> > Pontii Pilati they leave the matter to the police (what a great
> > > >> > advice!). But the
> > > >> > greek police is actually the main culprit of this violence against
> > > >> > the pedestrians.
> > > >> > Although otherwise very keen on shooting at unarmed adolescents or
> > > >> > torturing
> > > >> > desolate immigrants, when it comes to the protection of pedestrians
> > > >> > they are
> > > >> > completely reluctant, and they avoid to intervene, even when they
> > > >> > happen to be
> > > >> > present - the refuse to do so, even when asked for. To use their own
> > > >> > words, they
> > > >> > want to show "clemency" to the illegal drivers who violate pedestrian
> > > >> > rights. (if
> > > >> > someone can read greek, may have a look
> > > >> > athttp://www.pezh.gr/docs/astynkatapez2c.htmorhttp://www.pezh.gr/
> > > docs/a...)
> > > >> > Of course to the pedestrians who cannot
> > > >> > walk, even on these few spaces supposedly left for them by the
> > > >> > motorised traffic, or
> > > >> > fall victims of car "accidents" (and are accused afterwards by them
> > > >> > as responsible)
> > > >> > they have no mercy.
> > > >> > As for the judges, they are the basic pillar of the greek
> > > >> > corruptocracy. They are
> > > >> > relentless to petty criminals, but ready to acquit any big crook
> > > >> > (like those who led
> > > >> > greece to bankrupt). They are totally dependent on the government who
> > > >> > appoints the
> > > >> > judges of the high courts (and who, in turn, control strictly the
> > > >> > rest of the
> > > >> > judiciary) and most of them are deeply corrupted. When I applied to
> > > >> > the court few
> > > >> > years ago, they issued a decision according to which, whenever a
> > > >> > driver doesn't find
> > > >> > a parking place, it is reasonable to park on pedestrian spaces!
>
> > > >> > The European Commission's hypocrisy is gloriously manifested when
> > > >> > they finance this
> > > >> > administration, they implicitly accuse, to construct "sidewalks" like
> > > >> > this:
>
> > > >> >http://www.pezh.gr/docs/zaxarof.htm
>
> > > >> > or
>
> > > >> >http://www.pezh.gr/docs/loudr.htm
>
> > > >> > where no sensible pedestrian (and, even more, disabled) could ever
> > > >> > walk. Why do they
> > > >> > finance motorways and other car use facilities when the
> > > >> > administration confess they
> > > >> > are unable to guarantee the proper use of cars?
>
> > > >> > While on this regard the situation is particularly bad in Greece
> > > >> > (probably the worst
> > > >> > in Europe), there are also many other cities with similar problems.
> > > >> > Actually, to
> > > >> > some degree, the problem of respect of pedestrian (and bicyclist)
> > > >> > rights and spaces,
> > > >> > reside in every country. As an international movement we may be more
> > > >> > influential
> > > >> > towards international entities like the European Commission, than
> > > >> > when we act
> > > >> > separately. So, my proposal is to plan and implement interventions to
> > > >> > the European
> > > >> > Commission (a kind of lobbying) for the establishment of european
> > > >> > policies for the
> > > >> > extension, but even more for the protection and preservation of
> > > >> > pedestrian and
> > > >> > bicycle spaces."
>
> > > >> > More:
>
> > > >> >http://groups.google.co.uk/group/carfree_network/browse_frm/thread/
> > > cb...
>
> > > >> As far as I am concerned, anything that reduces the amount of space for
> > > >> you, your illegal e-bike and your Critical Mass buddies is a good
> > > >> thing!
>
> > > > And here was me thinking that someone like you would be pleased to learn
> > > > about a country which is even worse than ours! There is no pleasing some
> > > > people.
>
> > > Have you ever been there Doug?
>
> > No fortunately.
>
> > > I lived there for years. A lot of the article is bollocks. Some of the
> > > pictures, especially the first two, are *ancient*
>
> > I haver gathered the police are pretty bad there though especially
> > towards public protesters.. Its countries like Greece which makes UK
> > look good, even when it isn't.
>
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Your idea of 'good' is at odds with everyone else's Doug
>
Not everyone. People I know of from this country have suffered at the
hands of the violent Greek police.

--
UK Radical Campaigns
http://www.zing.icom43.net
One man's democracy is another man's Police State.
From: Norman Wells on
Doug wrote:

> AFAIK there isn't a truly democratic system anywhere in the world.
> They tend to follow a compromise pattern similar to ours. The point I
> always make though is, if it isn't a democracy why pretend that it is?

Well, it is. It's just not a democracy under your definition of the word.

We've already established under the Wear Purple for Democracy thread that
there are as many definitions of democracy as there are people.

Do please give us your specific definition, not what it isn't but what it
is.

I'll give a you a start:

"Democracy is ...

You finish it off, without using the word 'not'.



From: Mike P on
On Fri, 07 May 2010 09:18:12 +0000, boltar2003 sang, in the style of Bill
Bailey:

> On Fri, 7 May 2010 01:52:36 -0700 (PDT) Squashme <squashme(a)gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>The Greeks appear to be a bunch of bankrupt, freeloading, antisocial,
>>posing wankers, totally devoid of any aesthetic sense nowadays? And
>>probably with bad coughs.
>
> In greece you see the end result of the type of

Mass tax evasion and corruption by big business and by high earners over
the last 35 years.

Not

>socialism where people get easy lives, early retirement and money thrown
>at them from the state for doing not very much work.

Yet again you prove that you have no idea what you are talking about.
Ever so much as been to Greece? Worked there? Lived there? Have Greek
family? No, thought not..



--

Mike P
From: webreader on
On May 9, 10:32 am, "Norman Wells" <cut-me-own-thr...(a)dibblers-
pies.co.am> wrote:
> Doug wrote:
> > AFAIK there isn't a truly democratic system anywhere in the world.
> > They tend to follow a compromise pattern similar to ours. The point I
> > always make though is, if it isn't a democracy why pretend that it is?
>
> Well, it is.  It's just not a democracy under your definition of the word.
>
> We've already established under the Wear Purple for Democracy thread that
> there are as many definitions of democracy as there are people.
>
> Do please give us your specific definition, not what it isn't but what it
> is.
>
> I'll give a you a start:
>
> "Democracy is ...
>
> You finish it off, without using the word 'not'.

Oink flap, oink flap

All pigs fuelled & ready to fly.


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