From: Mr. Benn on
"Doug" <jagmad(a)riseup.net> wrote in message
news:5051a26b-cf82-4107-9e83-b022e789e827(a)u26g2000yqu.googlegroups.com...
> On 9 June, 18:37, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...(a)btinternet.com> wrote:

>> It's so bad that a group of people gather on Friday night every month to
>> hold up traffic, and cause more pollution, then they cycle in the
>> pollution they cause.
>>
> I'd just like to point out that the cyclists only do it for a couple
> of hours once a month while the polluters themselves drive in vast
> congesting hordes every day for most of the day while putting cyclists
> at risk from their foul tail-pipe emissions.

And during those two hours, pollution is increased by delaying hundreds of
motor vehicles with their engines idling.

It wouldn't be so bad if these was a good reason for the hold-up but there
never is. I'm still not sure what the purpose of CM is apart from sticking
two fingers up to other road users.

From: ash on
On 10 June, 07:34, Doug <jag...(a)riseup.net> wrote:
> On 9 June, 09:59, ash <ash.fil...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 9 June, 07:27, Doug <jag...(a)riseup.net> wrote:
>
> > > In London the only targets currently being exceeded for air pollution
> > > levels is by NO2, not by the frequently scapegoated PM10s from diesel
> > > vehicles.
>
> > >http://www.londonair.org.uk/london/asp/publicstats.asp?region=0&site=...
>
> > > And, quote.
>
> > > "Car Exhaust - Air Pollutants
>
> > > In cities across the globe, the personal automobile is the single
> > > greatest polluter, as emissions from a billion vehicles on the road
> > > add up to a planet-wide problem. Driving a private car is a typical
> > > citizen's most air polluting activity. The negative effects of
> > > automotive emissions are maximum when you sit in traffic surrounded by
> > > cars, their engines idling. Everyone sitting in a traffic jam is
> > > getting poisoned.
>
> > > The Combustion Process  Gasoline and diesel fuels are mixtures of
> > > hydrocarbons (made of hydrogen, oxygen and carbon atoms.) Hydrocarbons
> > > are burned by combining with oxygen. Nitrogen and sulphur atoms are
> > > also present and combine with oxygen when burned to produce gases.
> > > Automotive engines emit several types of pollutants..."
>
> > > "... Nitrogen Oxides  Under high pressure and temperature conditions
> > > in an engine, nitrogen and oxygen atoms react to form nitrogen oxides..
> > > Catalytic converters in car exhaust systems break down heavier
> > > nitrogen gases, forming nitrogen dioxide (NO2) - 300 times more potent
> > > than carbon dioxide as a greenhouse gas. NO2 makes up about 7.2
> > > percent of the gases that cause global warming. Vehicles with
> > > catalytic converters produced nearly half of that NO2..."
>
> > >http://www.nutramed.com/environment/carsepa.htm
>
> > > So the usual excuse from motorists, "I don't pollute because I have a
> > > catalytic converter ", is a load of old hogwash.
>
> > > --
> > > UK Radical Campaigns.http://www.zing.icom43.net
> > > "The car, more of a toilet than a convenience".
>
> > Dr James Le Fanu (Central London based doctor) :- I have some personal
> > experience of Mr Yeo’s concerns as the area of London where I work –
> > just a mile from the House of Commons – includes one of the capital’s
> > busiest intersections. Every hour, thousands of cars pour over
> > Vauxhall Bridge and hasten down The Embankment filling the air with
> > their exhaust fumes. And yet I doubt I see a single patient with
> > pollution-induced symptoms (let alone fatalities) from one year’s end
> > to the next.
>
> Anecdotal from a single individual.  It has also been used as a lame
> excuse on these NGs previously for continuing to pollute willy nilly.

Anecdotal evidence is still valid evidence and given it is from a
doctor working in exactly the same area in question (Central London),
its validity is even more pertinent - even if you choose to pretend it
isn't!

>
> >http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthadvice/jameslefanu/7528470/Do...
>
> > Flogging a dead horse springs to mind, and if all the cars became as
> > clean as the Pious, Doug would still be bitching about the factthey
> > are in his way on the roads (and not paying VED) whilst he trundles
> > about on his illegal E-bike
>
> The Prious still has emissions and shouldn't be allowed to be used by
> VED freeloaders.

You mean like all of the freeloading E-cyclists who are happy to use
the roads which others are paying disproportionate sums for by
comparison in their cars and on motorcycles ?

> Its only because most motorists have the urge to
> travel as far as possible and as often as possible that cleaner all
> electric vehicles, with their shorter range, are not more widely used.
>
> However, even an electric car is still capable of crashing onto a
> pavement and killing people while demolishing walls.
>
You are actually right in this part. The notion of a 'Green vehicle'
is a bit of a joke.

The motor vehicle is the symptom of the problem, and not the root
cause. One day the penny might drop !

> --
> UK Radical Campaigns.http://www.zing.icom43.net
> A driving licence is a licence to kill.

From: webreader on
On Jun 10, 7:34 am, Doug <jag...(a)riseup.net> wrote:
> On 9 June, 09:59, ash <ash.fil...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On 9 June, 07:27, Doug <jag...(a)riseup.net> wrote:
>
> > > In London the only targets currently being exceeded for air pollution
> > > levels is by NO2, not by the frequently scapegoated PM10s from diesel
> > > vehicles.
>
> > >http://www.londonair.org.uk/london/asp/publicstats.asp?region=0&site=...
>
> > > And, quote.
>
> > > "Car Exhaust - Air Pollutants
>
> > > In cities across the globe, the personal automobile is the single
> > > greatest polluter, as emissions from a billion vehicles on the road
> > > add up to a planet-wide problem. Driving a private car is a typical
> > > citizen's most air polluting activity. The negative effects of
> > > automotive emissions are maximum when you sit in traffic surrounded by
> > > cars, their engines idling. Everyone sitting in a traffic jam is
> > > getting poisoned.
>
> > > The Combustion Process  Gasoline and diesel fuels are mixtures of
> > > hydrocarbons (made of hydrogen, oxygen and carbon atoms.) Hydrocarbons
> > > are burned by combining with oxygen. Nitrogen and sulphur atoms are
> > > also present and combine with oxygen when burned to produce gases.
> > > Automotive engines emit several types of pollutants..."
>
> > > "... Nitrogen Oxides  Under high pressure and temperature conditions
> > > in an engine, nitrogen and oxygen atoms react to form nitrogen oxides..
> > > Catalytic converters in car exhaust systems break down heavier
> > > nitrogen gases, forming nitrogen dioxide (NO2) - 300 times more potent
> > > than carbon dioxide as a greenhouse gas. NO2 makes up about 7.2
> > > percent of the gases that cause global warming. Vehicles with
> > > catalytic converters produced nearly half of that NO2..."
>
> > >http://www.nutramed.com/environment/carsepa.htm
>
> > > So the usual excuse from motorists, "I don't pollute because I have a
> > > catalytic converter ", is a load of old hogwash.
>
> > > --
> > > UK Radical Campaigns.http://www.zing.icom43.net
> > > "The car, more of a toilet than a convenience".
>
> > Dr James Le Fanu (Central London based doctor) :- I have some personal
> > experience of Mr Yeo’s concerns as the area of London where I work –
> > just a mile from the House of Commons – includes one of the capital’s
> > busiest intersections. Every hour, thousands of cars pour over
> > Vauxhall Bridge and hasten down The Embankment filling the air with
> > their exhaust fumes. And yet I doubt I see a single patient with
> > pollution-induced symptoms (let alone fatalities) from one year’s end
> > to the next.
>
> Anecdotal from a single individual.  It has also been used as a lame
> excuse on these NGs previously for continuing to pollute willy nilly.
>

I take it then that we will not hear from you about being rammed,
after all it is merely anecdotal.

From: Doug on
On 10 June, 23:19, ash <ash.fil...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On 10 June, 07:34, Doug <jag...(a)riseup.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 9 June, 09:59, ash <ash.fil...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On 9 June, 07:27, Doug <jag...(a)riseup.net> wrote:
>
> > > > In London the only targets currently being exceeded for air pollution
> > > > levels is by NO2, not by the frequently scapegoated PM10s from diesel
> > > > vehicles.
>
> > > >http://www.londonair.org.uk/london/asp/publicstats.asp?region=0&site=...
>
> > > > And, quote.
>
> > > > "Car Exhaust - Air Pollutants
>
> > > > In cities across the globe, the personal automobile is the single
> > > > greatest polluter, as emissions from a billion vehicles on the road
> > > > add up to a planet-wide problem. Driving a private car is a typical
> > > > citizen's most air polluting activity. The negative effects of
> > > > automotive emissions are maximum when you sit in traffic surrounded by
> > > > cars, their engines idling. Everyone sitting in a traffic jam is
> > > > getting poisoned.
>
> > > > The Combustion Process  Gasoline and diesel fuels are mixtures of
> > > > hydrocarbons (made of hydrogen, oxygen and carbon atoms.) Hydrocarbons
> > > > are burned by combining with oxygen. Nitrogen and sulphur atoms are
> > > > also present and combine with oxygen when burned to produce gases.
> > > > Automotive engines emit several types of pollutants..."
>
> > > > "... Nitrogen Oxides  Under high pressure and temperature conditions
> > > > in an engine, nitrogen and oxygen atoms react to form nitrogen oxides.
> > > > Catalytic converters in car exhaust systems break down heavier
> > > > nitrogen gases, forming nitrogen dioxide (NO2) - 300 times more potent
> > > > than carbon dioxide as a greenhouse gas. NO2 makes up about 7.2
> > > > percent of the gases that cause global warming. Vehicles with
> > > > catalytic converters produced nearly half of that NO2..."
>
> > > >http://www.nutramed.com/environment/carsepa.htm
>
> > > > So the usual excuse from motorists, "I don't pollute because I have a
> > > > catalytic converter ", is a load of old hogwash.
>
> > > > --
> > > > UK Radical Campaigns.http://www.zing.icom43.net
> > > > "The car, more of a toilet than a convenience".
>
> > > Dr James Le Fanu (Central London based doctor) :- I have some personal
> > > experience of Mr Yeo’s concerns as the area of London where I work –
> > > just a mile from the House of Commons – includes one of the capital’s
> > > busiest intersections. Every hour, thousands of cars pour over
> > > Vauxhall Bridge and hasten down The Embankment filling the air with
> > > their exhaust fumes. And yet I doubt I see a single patient with
> > > pollution-induced symptoms (let alone fatalities) from one year’s end
> > > to the next.
>
> > Anecdotal from a single individual.  It has also been used as a lame
> > excuse on these NGs previously for continuing to pollute willy nilly.
>
> Anecdotal evidence is still valid evidence and given it is from a
> doctor working in exactly the same area in question (Central London),
> its validity is even more pertinent - even if you choose to pretend it
> isn't!
>
Unsupported anecdotal evidence is merely the opinion of a single
person and not evidence.

If I say "the moon doesn't exist" in what way would that ever be
accepted?
>
>
> > >http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthadvice/jameslefanu/7528470/Do....
>
> > > Flogging a dead horse springs to mind, and if all the cars became as
> > > clean as the Pious, Doug would still be bitching about the factthey
> > > are in his way on the roads (and not paying VED) whilst he trundles
> > > about on his illegal E-bike
>
> > The Prious still has emissions and shouldn't be allowed to be used by
> > VED freeloaders.
>
> You mean like all of the freeloading E-cyclists who are happy to use
> the roads which others are paying disproportionate sums for by
> comparison in their cars and on motorcycles ?
>
Drivers are not paying for the roads, they are paying for all the harm
they cause generally. The roads are paid for by everyone who pays
taxes, including cyclists. Motorists do not own the roads,
fortunately, though from all appearances they would seem to, like free
street garaging and parking on pavements for example
>
> > Its only because most motorists have the urge to
> > travel as far as possible and as often as possible that cleaner all
> > electric vehicles, with their shorter range, are not more widely used.
>
> > However, even an electric car is still capable of crashing onto a
> > pavement and killing people while demolishing walls.
>
> You are actually right in this part. The notion of a 'Green vehicle'
> is a bit of a joke.
>
Thanks. As we all know there is no such thing as a 'green vehicle' but
some may be a bit less polluting than others, hence the greenwash.
>
> The motor vehicle is the symptom of the problem, and not the root
> cause. One day the penny might drop !
>
What problem is it a symptom of? The irrational urge to travel
unnecessarily?

--
UK Radical Campaigns.
http://www.zing.icom43.net
Travel broadens the damage.
From: Brimstone on

"Doug" <jagmad(a)riseup.net> wrote in message
news:bb818c3b-cb94-4ac9-830a-4b8cee6cac52(a)j4g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
> On 10 June, 23:19, ash <ash.fil...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 10 June, 07:34, Doug <jag...(a)riseup.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > On 9 June, 09:59, ash <ash.fil...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > > On 9 June, 07:27, Doug <jag...(a)riseup.net> wrote:
>>
>> > > > In London the only targets currently being exceeded for air
>> > > > pollution
>> > > > levels is by NO2, not by the frequently scapegoated PM10s from
>> > > > diesel
>> > > > vehicles.
>>
>> > > >http://www.londonair.org.uk/london/asp/publicstats.asp?region=0&site=...
>>
>> > > > And, quote.
>>
>> > > > "Car Exhaust - Air Pollutants
>>
>> > > > In cities across the globe, the personal automobile is the single
>> > > > greatest polluter, as emissions from a billion vehicles on the road
>> > > > add up to a planet-wide problem. Driving a private car is a typical
>> > > > citizen's most air polluting activity. The negative effects of
>> > > > automotive emissions are maximum when you sit in traffic surrounded
>> > > > by
>> > > > cars, their engines idling. Everyone sitting in a traffic jam is
>> > > > getting poisoned.
>>
>> > > > The Combustion Process Gasoline and diesel fuels are mixtures of
>> > > > hydrocarbons (made of hydrogen, oxygen and carbon atoms.)
>> > > > Hydrocarbons
>> > > > are burned by combining with oxygen. Nitrogen and sulphur atoms are
>> > > > also present and combine with oxygen when burned to produce gases.
>> > > > Automotive engines emit several types of pollutants..."
>>
>> > > > "... Nitrogen Oxides Under high pressure and temperature
>> > > > conditions
>> > > > in an engine, nitrogen and oxygen atoms react to form nitrogen
>> > > > oxides.
>> > > > Catalytic converters in car exhaust systems break down heavier
>> > > > nitrogen gases, forming nitrogen dioxide (NO2) - 300 times more
>> > > > potent
>> > > > than carbon dioxide as a greenhouse gas. NO2 makes up about 7.2
>> > > > percent of the gases that cause global warming. Vehicles with
>> > > > catalytic converters produced nearly half of that NO2..."
>>
>> > > >http://www.nutramed.com/environment/carsepa.htm
>>
>> > > > So the usual excuse from motorists, "I don't pollute because I have
>> > > > a
>> > > > catalytic converter ", is a load of old hogwash.
>>
>> > > > --
>> > > > UK Radical Campaigns.http://www.zing.icom43.net
>> > > > "The car, more of a toilet than a convenience".
>>
>> > > Dr James Le Fanu (Central London based doctor) :- I have some
>> > > personal
>> > > experience of Mr Yeo�s concerns as the area of London where I work �
>> > > just a mile from the House of Commons � includes one of the capital�s
>> > > busiest intersections. Every hour, thousands of cars pour over
>> > > Vauxhall Bridge and hasten down The Embankment filling the air with
>> > > their exhaust fumes. And yet I doubt I see a single patient with
>> > > pollution-induced symptoms (let alone fatalities) from one year�s end
>> > > to the next.
>>
>> > Anecdotal from a single individual. It has also been used as a lame
>> > excuse on these NGs previously for continuing to pollute willy nilly.
>>
>> Anecdotal evidence is still valid evidence and given it is from a
>> doctor working in exactly the same area in question (Central London),
>> its validity is even more pertinent - even if you choose to pretend it
>> isn't!
>>
> Unsupported anecdotal evidence is merely the opinion of a single
> person and not evidence.

Wrong. Such evidence is accepted in court.

> If I say "the moon doesn't exist" in what way would that ever be
> accepted?

Because anyone capable of looking at the night sky at the appropriate times
would soon discover that you are lying. But that is your standard MO and so
you would be disbelieved automatically.

>> > >http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthadvice/jameslefanu/7528470/Do...
>>
>> > > Flogging a dead horse springs to mind, and if all the cars became as
>> > > clean as the Pious, Doug would still be bitching about the factthey
>> > > are in his way on the roads (and not paying VED) whilst he trundles
>> > > about on his illegal E-bike
>>
>> > The Prious still has emissions and shouldn't be allowed to be used by
>> > VED freeloaders.
>>
>> You mean like all of the freeloading E-cyclists who are happy to use
>> the roads which others are paying disproportionate sums for by
>> comparison in their cars and on motorcycles ?
>>
> Drivers are not paying for the roads, they are paying for all the harm
> they cause generally.

Evidence?

As with all other taxes, those levied on motoring, and cycling (whether
electric or proper bicycles) go into a central pot. There isn't a special
pot labelled "harm repair".

> The roads are paid for by everyone who pays
> taxes, including cyclists. Motorists do not own the roads,
> fortunately, though from all appearances they would seem to, like free
> street garaging and parking on pavements for example
>>
>> > Its only because most motorists have the urge to
>> > travel as far as possible and as often as possible that cleaner all
>> > electric vehicles, with their shorter range, are not more widely used.
>>
>> > However, even an electric car is still capable of crashing onto a
>> > pavement and killing people while demolishing walls.
>>
>> You are actually right in this part. The notion of a 'Green vehicle'
>> is a bit of a joke.
>>
> Thanks. As we all know there is no such thing as a 'green vehicle' but
> some may be a bit less polluting than others, hence the greenwash.

So why are you contributing to the pollution by using an electric bicycle?

>> The motor vehicle is the symptom of the problem, and not the root
>> cause. One day the penny might drop !
>>
> What problem is it a symptom of? The irrational urge to travel
> unnecessarily?
>
The only unnecessary use of a motor vehicle is that done as sport, like
driving a Land-Rover off road across farmer's land. Don't you agree Doug?


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