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From: hls on 3 Jan 2010 16:18 "Tegger" <invalid(a)invalid.inv> wrote in message > > The only reason I "know" this is because I see it mentioned all the time > in > the classic car magazines. It seems modern fuels have a tendency to cause > vapor lock in classics, which were designed for use with much less > volatile > fuels. > > -- > Tegger The "classics" had much lower pressure in the fuel lines than do the fuel injected cars of today. High line pressure counteracts vapor lock (within expected temperature ranges). We might be able to find some vapor pressure curves of old fuels versus the new formulations, and that should tell a lot.
From: Vic Smith on 3 Jan 2010 22:35 On Sun, 3 Jan 2010 10:16:33 -0800 (PST), phaeton <blahbleh666(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > >Well, one thing I notice is that even if the engine is warmed up, >other things aren't. The power steering system will almost kill the >engine if I turn the wheel too hard. Also I have to double clutch >every shift for a mile or so because I'm guessing the oil in the >transmission is thick enough to almost stop the countershaft as soon >as power is removed from it. Granted, many manuals these days are >filled with ATF (like mine) which IIRC is approximately 20W. My dad >used to tell me stories of when he was in High School in the 1960s in >Pennsylvania. During the winters he would have to park his 1957 >Plymouth (or maybe it was the 53 Crown Vic) in second gear because it >never warmed up enough to be able to shift on the way to school. >(Uphill, both ways, etc). I'm guessing those old manuals had 90W in >them. > >Also there's the joy of breaking the tires loose from the ice, and on >some days (like today) all 4 tires have 'flat spots' on them that take >a long time to knead out. Some vehicles with small engines but full- >sized radiator profiles will actually stay below operating temp while >driving. This time of year you see a lot of small trucks (like mine) >and vans with the cardboard bungeed to the grille. Nothing like >driving for 10 miles, getting off the highway and having your engine >return to fast idle when you hit the stoplight. > IME, different cars handle cold differently. But I've experienced variations of what you said with almost every car I've had. Only one that I started and took off right away without warming a bit was the '88 Celebrity 2.8. Nothing phased it. Never had to put cardboard on, though both 4-bangers I've had, a 2.0 Cav and a 2.2 Corsica, took much longer to put heat in the passenger area than a 6 or 8. But the t-stat should keep you from using cardboard. First thing I think when I see that is poor cooling design or no t-stat. Some backyard mechanics used to throw the t-stat away to keep from overheating in the summer. Until it warmed up, the '64 Bug would want to creep forward in neutral unless you disengaged the clutch. 90W. But that one never warmed up the inside when it was bitter out. Had to keep an ice scraper inside to scrape the *inside* of the windshield as I drove. Bitter is south of -0 F to me. Worse thing is when I've heard the rings scraping the cylinder walls on my 350 with a dead cold start-up at -27 F. Very bad sound. Ran straight 30 weight oil then. Heard a lesser noise once with my Celebrity 2.8 running 10-40 oil at -25 F. Let it run a minute before taking off that time. Always good to park with nose away from the wind if you can. Can make a huge difference in how fast the engine cools. When bitterly cold, I usually take off slowly right away if traffic allows, and find everything loosens up pretty quick. BTW, I never had a problem doing that with carbs either, but my choke, auto or manual, was always set right. This real cold stuff doesn't happen here (Chicago area) as it does up north, but if you're here long enough, you'll run into what I've mentioned. >I agree that living in places like this is completely asinine. I >don't know how (or why) people bothered with this before the >industrial revolution, and things like fiberglass insulation and gas >boilers became available. Jobs, probably. And oddly enough, some people like snow. Since I was born here, it never bothered me when I was younger. Just something you deal with. Now that I'm getting old, so is the cold. --Vic
From: cuhulin on 3 Jan 2010 23:04 My mom owned a 1952 Ford car, six cylinder, manual shift transmission with manual choke.No matter how cold the weather got that car always started right up first time every time.Someday, I am going to rig up a manual choke on my 1983 Dodge van.I hate automatic chokes, worst invention ever, in my opinion. cuhulin
From: jim on 4 Jan 2010 07:04 Vic Smith wrote: > > On Sun, 3 Jan 2010 10:16:33 -0800 (PST), phaeton > <blahbleh666(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > >Well, one thing I notice is that even if the engine is warmed up, > >other things aren't. The power steering system will almost kill the > >engine if I turn the wheel too hard. Also I have to double clutch > >every shift for a mile or so because I'm guessing the oil in the > >transmission is thick enough to almost stop the countershaft as soon > >as power is removed from it. Granted, many manuals these days are > >filled with ATF (like mine) which IIRC is approximately 20W. My dad > >used to tell me stories of when he was in High School in the 1960s in > >Pennsylvania. During the winters he would have to park his 1957 > >Plymouth (or maybe it was the 53 Crown Vic) in second gear because it > >never warmed up enough to be able to shift on the way to school. > >(Uphill, both ways, etc). I'm guessing those old manuals had 90W in > >them. > > > >Also there's the joy of breaking the tires loose from the ice, and on > >some days (like today) all 4 tires have 'flat spots' on them that take > >a long time to knead out. Some vehicles with small engines but full- > >sized radiator profiles will actually stay below operating temp while > >driving. This time of year you see a lot of small trucks (like mine) > >and vans with the cardboard bungeed to the grille. Nothing like > >driving for 10 miles, getting off the highway and having your engine > >return to fast idle when you hit the stoplight. > > > IME, different cars handle cold differently. But I've experienced > variations of what you said with almost every car I've had. > Only one that I started and took off right away without warming a bit > was the '88 Celebrity 2.8. Nothing phased it. > Never had to put cardboard on, though both 4-bangers I've had, > a 2.0 Cav and a 2.2 Corsica, took much longer to put heat in the > passenger area than a 6 or 8. But the t-stat should keep you from > using cardboard. First thing I think when I see that is poor cooling > design or no t-stat. > Some backyard mechanics used to throw the t-stat away to keep from > overheating in the summer. > Until it warmed up, the '64 Bug would want to creep forward in neutral > unless you disengaged the clutch. 90W. > But that one never warmed up the inside when it was bitter out. Had > to keep an ice scraper inside to scrape the *inside* of the windshield > as I drove. > Bitter is south of -0 F to me. > Worse thing is when I've heard the rings scraping the cylinder walls > on my 350 with a dead cold start-up at -27 F. Very bad sound. > Ran straight 30 weight oil then. It is remarkable that it started with single grade 30 wt oil. A lot of the noise you heard was probably the oil pump. At that temperature the oil pump can suck the oil in but the oil in the pan won't flow to replace the oil that has been drawn, so you very quickly end up with the pump sucking air thru a hole in the oil. The oil surrounding the hole is too stiff to flow into the hole. -jim > Heard a lesser noise once with my Celebrity 2.8 running 10-40 oil at > -25 F. Let it run a minute before taking off that time. > Always good to park with nose away from the wind if you can. > Can make a huge difference in how fast the engine cools. > When bitterly cold, I usually take off slowly right away if traffic > allows, and find everything loosens up pretty quick. > BTW, I never had a problem doing that with carbs either, but my choke, > auto or manual, was always set right. > This real cold stuff doesn't happen here (Chicago area) as it does up > north, but if you're here long enough, you'll run into what I've > mentioned. > > >I agree that living in places like this is completely asinine. I > >don't know how (or why) people bothered with this before the > >industrial revolution, and things like fiberglass insulation and gas > >boilers became available. > > Jobs, probably. And oddly enough, some people like snow. > Since I was born here, it never bothered me when I was younger. > Just something you deal with. > Now that I'm getting old, so is the cold. > > --Vic
From: Vic Smith on 4 Jan 2010 08:14
On Mon, 04 Jan 2010 06:04:44 -0600, jim <"sjedgingN0Sp"@m(a)mwt,net> wrote: > >> Worse thing is when I've heard the rings scraping the cylinder walls >> on my 350 with a dead cold start-up at -27 F. Very bad sound. >> Ran straight 30 weight oil then. > >It is remarkable that it started with single grade 30 wt oil. A lot of >the noise you heard was probably the oil pump. At that temperature the >oil pump can suck the oil in but the oil in the pan won't flow to >replace the oil that has been drawn, so you very quickly end up with the >pump sucking air thru a hole in the oil. The oil surrounding the hole is >too stiff to flow into the hole. > Straight 30 weight oil was commonly used here 30 years ago. Winter and summer. And that was record cold. I suppose some went to 15 or 20 weight for the winter, or went to multi-grade earlier than I did. But for years I just bought Quaker State 30 weight. No real reason other than I had no lube problems I was aware of, so I stuck with it. I generally buy 15W40 now, any name brand that's cheapest. If we suffered those kind of temps often I'd go to Mobil 1. But we don't. I highly doubt what I heard had anything to do with the oil pump. My ears are pretty good for engine sounds. Closest sound to it I've heard is all the cam bearings wiping in my 352 when I botched the rebuild. But no bearings were wiped. Too loud for any bearing anyway. This was LOUD. I'll stick with rings on cylinder walls. Might be wrong though. It only lasted a couple revs. --Vic |