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From: Dave__67 on 12 Mar 2010 08:05
On Mar 11, 10:20 pm, Scott in SoCal <scottenazt...(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
> Last time on rec.autos.driving, Dave__67 <spamTHIS...(a)yahoo.com> said:
> >On Mar 11, 10:35 am, Scott in SoCal <scottenazt...(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> Last time on rec.autos.driving, Dave__67 <spamTHIS...(a)yahoo.com> said:
> >> >On Mar 11, 1:42 am, Scott in SoCal <scottenazt...(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >> Great article from C&D. Among other things, they proved that the
> >> >> brakes can *always* overpower the engine and stop the car - even on a
> >> >> 540HP supercharged Roush Mustang.
> >> >>http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how_to_deal_with_unintended...
> >> >Too bad they're wrong.
> >> >Shame on Subaru for undersizing the brakes on my wagon, but the brakes
> >> >cannot stop the car with the throttle WFO.
> >> What was the methodology for your test? Are your brakes in proper
> >> working condition? Are your results repeatable across other Subaru
> >> wagons of the same year and model as yours?
> >Bedded-in ceramic pads on good quality rotors, all caliper pistons
> >retracted freely, pads sliding on new hardware, caliper sliders moving
> >Roll slowly, floor gas, immed. stand on brake, brakes can limit the
> >speed to about 10-15.
> C&D found a similar result with one of the cars they tested. As you
> note, once you get the car down to that speed, it should not be
> difficult to find something benign to bump into to fully stop the car.
> Bottom line, I see no reason for Subaru to hang its head in shame.
> The MFFY Litmus Test:
> If your maneuver forces another driver WHO HAS THE RIGHT-OF-WAY
> to alter course or speed, what you did was probably MFFY.
It's a 3600 lb car that will do a bit better than 120- trust me,
From: Ashton Crusher on 12 Mar 2010 13:44
On Fri, 12 Mar 2010 07:40:26 -0800, Scott in SoCal
>Last time on rec.autos.driving, Alexander Rogge <a_rogge(a)yahoo.com>
>>> """The new wrinkle here: the keyless, push-button start-and-stop systems in
>>> many vehicles. Owners need to be aware that these systems require a long
>>> press of the button to shut off power when the car is moving (so that an
>>> inadvertent touch of the button by the driver doesn�t kill the engine)."""
>>A simpler and safer method would be to put a flip-cover over the power
>>button and any other critical control switches.
>My car has pushbutton start.
>Starting the engine requires only a short push of ~1 second. I donm't
>even have to hold the button down while the engine cranks - the engine
>control module monitors the state of various sensors and operates the
>starter motor for precisely the right amount of time required to start
>the car and no more. I could hit the start button with the engine
>running and it would be smart enough not to engage the starter motor
>and chip a bunch of teeth off the flywheel.
>Shutting the car off is exactly the same procedure: a ~1 second push
>and the ignition if off.
Is that true when you are in gear crusing at 70?
No hold-for-3-seconds bullshit, and no
>flip-open plastic cover. I've owned this car for over 5 years now, and
>never once have I shut it off accidentally.
>Requiring the button to be held down for ~3 seconds is a poor design,
>but these drivers also bear the responsibility to learn how to operate
>their cars in an emergency situation.
From: Matthew Russotto on 23 Mar 2010 22:50
In article <7vuc6qFtp3U1(a)mid.individual.net>,
Alexander Rogge <a_rogge(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
>A simpler and safer method would be to put a flip-cover over the power
>button and any other critical control switches.
I don't think a flip cover is the right answer for this one. Since
you use the power button routinely, you'd need to open the cover
routinely, which is inevitably going to result in both broken and
intentionally removed covers.
The problem with socialism is there's always
someone with less ability and more need.
From: Dave__67 on 24 Mar 2010 08:33
On Mar 23, 10:50 pm, russo...(a)grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew Russotto)
> In article <7vuc6qFtp...(a)mid.individual.net>,
> Alexander Rogge <a_ro...(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
> >A simpler and safer method would be to put a flip-cover over the power
> >button and any other critical control switches.
> I don't think a flip cover is the right answer for this one. Since
> you use the power button routinely, you'd need to open the cover
> routinely, which is inevitably going to result in both broken and
> intentionally removed covers.
> The problem with socialism is there's always
> someone with less ability and more need.
I was in an Altima rental the other day- had a manual shift gate where
you would have to push the shifter to the right, then up, to get into
Also had a pushbutton start.
Forget to see if the brakes would cut off the throttle.
It did have a nice CVT.
From: Josh on 24 Mar 2010 17:02
On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 07:43:18 -0700, Scott in SoCal
>Last time on rec.autos.driving, Dave__67 <spamTHISbrp(a)yahoo.com> said:
>>I was in an Altima rental the other day- had a manual shift gate where
>>you would have to push the shifter to the right, then up, to get into
>I wonder if those funky shift gate layouts are nothing more than
>styling, kinda like tire tread patterns. One of the first things a
>potential car buyer sees when looking inside that shiny new vehicle on
>the showroom floor is the shifter in the center console. If it looks
>cool and high-tech, perhaps that excites the buyer and makes him more
>likely to purchase (e.g.) an Altima rather than an Accord?
>Gimmicks like the automatic transmissions with the "+" and "-" serve
>no practical purpose, but carmakers add them so that Walter Mitty
>types, who couldn't drive a manual transmission without grinding gears
>and burning out clutches, can pretend they're driving a race car
>(through bumper-to-bumper traffic).
The funky patterns are definitely for style, and should not be allowed
to be less user-friendly for critical safety uses -- and shifting to
Neutral seems to me like a basic fail-safe requirement.
And nothing about a hybrid requires it -- our 2006 Highlander Hybrid
(same system as the Prius) has a standard linear P-R-N-D-B shifter (B
= L effectively). Shifting from D->N simply requires pushing the
lever up, no button press required (and you won't accidentally go into
R/P unless you do press the button). I see no functionality gained by
the Prius shifter (or the newer Highlander gated pattern, for that
matter), and I'm willing to let Toyota take a lot of blame here, even
if drivers should also learn how to operate their cars.
Same for the "high tech" pushbutton start -- if it can't be made to
work in easy-to-expect ways as a mechanical keyswitch does, then they
shouldn't be allowed. Again, our Highlander Hybrid has a normal
keyswitch ("Start" doesn't actually start the engine right away, but
is required to bring the system alive and dash lights and indicators
come on as expected).
I don't mind the "-S+" modes -- sometimes it's nice to have per-gear
control -- mainly when going down mountain grades. Choosing 4th, 3rd,
or 2nd based on the grade, speed limit, and curviness would hold it in
a nice speed range without needing the brakes too much. I still miss
my manual Neon for that (not so much in stop and go traffic though).
Our Highlander Hybrid just has one "B", which is usually either too
slow or too fast, so you're still on and off the brakes.