From: harry on 18 Jul 2010 12:27
On 18 July, 14:39, Jo <joanna.hamilto...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello all,
> I'm quite shaken as I had a brush with the grim reaper today :(
> Coming off a roundabout, I was driving along an A-road immediately
> behind a horse carriage doing 20 mph in a 60 mph road. I was about 150
> yards past the roundabout and a queue of cars had built up behind me.
> I felt pressured into overtaking the horse carriage. It was too slow
> for 3rd gear and I was in 2nd gear. The horse carriage seemed to speed
> up as I was overtaking them (but can't be sure). I sped up to about
> 30mph and was now astride the rear wheels of the vehicle. I fumbled
> the 2-3rd gear change (seemed stuck and cost me a few seconds to try
> again) and oncoming traffic lead by a truck was now too close. There
> was enough space if I didn't fumble the 2-3rd gear change and didn't
> expect my spot behind the horse trailer to be closed up so quickly
> So having no choice I floored the accelerator to 60mph on 3rd gear.
> The oncoming traffic went to the left of their lane to make way for me
> and three vehicles were astride at one point.
> If you were in that situation what would you have done? I couldn't
> have gone back and it seems the only way was to get past and in front
> of the horse trailer.
> Thanks for any advice. Please don't flame me I'm a new driver and my
> confidence has been badly shaken today already :(
These things have happened to us all in the past. As you get more
experienced it won't happen any more. It's all part of your learning
You won't do it again will you? There you go.
From: Dave Head on 18 Jul 2010 12:56
On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 17:10:53 +0100, %email@example.com (Steve Firth)
>Dave Head <rally2xs(a)att.net> wrote:
>I'm defeated by INN's rejection of excessive quoted text so I'll have to
>slash quoted text from the reply.
>> On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 15:54:27 +0100, %firstname.lastname@example.org (Steve Firth)
>> >1. You should not have been "immediately" behind the horse and carriage.
>> >Being too close can cause the horse to shy or bolt, not good in either
>> I think it was a horse TRAILER, not a horse-drawn carriage.
>Well the OP clearly said a horse carriage, not a horse trailer.
Well, actually, later in the post was this sentence:
have gone back and it seems the only way was to get past and in front
of the horse trailer."
So I think it was a trailer.
> So I'm
>not sure why you wrote TRAILER in scary capitals. You're guessing at her
>intended meaning and taking a leap of faith about her misuse of
I don't even know that it was a "her". Jo is kinda unisex. If a guy,
its usually "Joe" but not necessarily.
>> >2. You should hang back and take a commanding position on the road
>> I don't agee with that. I think if you hang back and start your
>> maneuver as a surprise, then you're less likely to get a hanger-on
>> that wants to do it on your rear bumper as well, and thus limits your
>> options to quit the maneuver if things aren't going well.
><shrug> You're allowed to have the wrong idea, I just hope I'm not
>around when you practice your brainwave of overtaking "as a surprise".
>Nothing you do should come as a surprise to anyone else on the road.
If you let everyone know what you're up to, a lot of times they use it
against you. And, there's absolutely no value to those in the rear of
knowing you're going to pass. What are they gonna do about it, eh?
>> >3. There is no pressure. The worst that can happen is that some
>> >impatient sod behind overtakes you and the carriage. So what? He's the
>> >prat and you are the sensible driver.
>> Well, its not completely without risk, either. If he screws up, you
>> are likely to become part of his accident.
>Not if you are driving sensibly and in an appropriate position.
Totally wrong. If you are following the trailer at whatever distance,
he screws up the pass and someone else takes a "ditch" path to avoid
them, the guy in the ditch may pop out of it just in time to nail you
head-on, possibly not even in control of the vehicle by that time. And
the guy passing you both is probably going to be going even faster
than he would passing just you.
>> But its true that you shouldn't feel pressure to pass.
>It was all true.
>> >4. Doing as you describe, racing the engine, fumbling the gear changes
>> >and generally making a hash of it must have been worrying for horse and
>> >carriage driver.
>> I think it was a horsetrailer, drawn by a truck. No horse-drawn
>> vehicle is going to be going 20 mph,
>I take you haven't been around any area of the country where trotting
>carriage are taken out on the road?
What country? I'm in Virginia. We don't do that sort of thing here
much, as we don't have that high of population with a death wish. We
have these peculiar religious people that don't believe in motor
travel in some places, and where they are around here, the state (of
Maryland) has constructed very wide road shoulders where they can
operate their horse-drawn vehicles totally off the main roadway. The
population is aging, and whether they have lights or a little orange
triangle or whatever, someoene is going to eventually hit them in the
rear and propel them to the moon if they are out there on the main
roadway at night, which they do not refrain from traveling.
>> let alone be suspected of speeding up much.
>A horse trailer or horse box is unlikely to have speeded up much while
>being overtaken either. Many drivers think the overtaking vehicle has
>speeded up because their overtake is slower than they think it should
>So far there's you and you and thinks that a horse carriage is a
>trailer. Until the OP clarifies their intended meaning I admit that my
>degree in telepathy was a failure.
You have to read the whole thing. He/She said trailer later in the
>> Passing on 2-lane roads is a full throttle situation until you get to
>> the speed you're absolutely sure is sufficient to make the pass.
>With any decent car or even with an average car on a damp road that
>would see you facing the other direction after colliding with the
>scenery and other road users several times.
Depends on the car and the driver. I can full-throttle a pass in the
wet. If its slipperier than that, I'll pass only if I can see all the
way to a distance I'm absolutely sure is long enough to be safe.
>Even on a shopping trolley
>full throttle overtakes are rarely necessary and not at all desirable
>when passing horses.
What's the difference? The critter doesn't know the difference
between full throttle and not. S'matter, U got a leaky muffler,
making a lotta noise? My WRX is REALLY incognito as a quick car. Its
really silent under full throttle.
>> I _always_ absolutely floorboard the throttle unless I can see absolutely
>> to the horizon and know there are zero oncoming cars. Optical illusions
>> can make a car you can see but think is far away to be closer than you
>See previous comment about not wanting to be near you when you are on
Well, that's one of the benefits, too. I don't WANT anyone near me
when I'm passing.
>> >6. Once past the vehicle allow plenty of room before dropping back, you
>> >should be able to see the horses face in the rear view mirror before
>> >dropping back.
>> Or the headlights of the truck pulling the horsetrailer, and that
>> would be the _inside_ rear-view mirror, not the door-mounted one.
><sigh> Did I say door mirror? No, I didn't.
You didn't clarify it either, didja?
>> >7. If there's no room to do this safely and slowly don't even think
>> >about trying an overtake.
>> >Your failure was because you were panicked into doing something that you
>> >should not do. The cause of that panic was something happening in your
>At last we agree.
From: Dave Head on 18 Jul 2010 13:03
On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 12:25:58 -0400, Mike Ross <mike(a)corestore.org>
>>If you were in that situation what would you have done? I couldn't
>>have gone back
>Yes you bloody well could and should.
That's a really tricky thing to do. You don't have much time, you
have to decelerate sharply to get the nose of your vehicle behind the
horsetrailer AND not be going so slow that you're going to crash the
vehicle behind when you pull over to get behind the horsetrailer. You
have to downshift quickly to do this and hit the throttle to match the
horstrailer's speed as much as possible, and, well, its really tricky.
From: steve robinson on 18 Jul 2010 13:04
Mike Ross wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 06:39:56 -0700 (PDT), Jo
> <joanna.hamilton90(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hello all,
> > I'm quite shaken as I had a brush with the grim reaper today :(
> > Coming off a roundabout, I was driving along an A-road immediately
> > behind a horse carriage doing 20 mph in a 60 mph road. I was
> > about 150 yards past the roundabout and a queue of cars had built
> > up behind me.
> > I felt pressured into overtaking
> Big mistake. You overtake when YOU are ready and not before. If
> you're driving a slowish vehicle and/or you're a slowish driver,
> leave a good gap between you and the vehicle you're trying to pass;
> do NOT sit on their tail. This has five good effects:
> 1. You're not tailgating!
> 2. You leave a gap into which a faster, more powerful car behind
> you can pull, as they overtake first you and then the vehicle in
> front of you. 3. You get much better sight lines to see the road
> ahead and judge when it's safe to overtake.
> 4. You have some space in which you can build up speed before
> crossing to the wrong side of the road to overtake; much better
> than pulling out while going at the same speed as the vehicle in
> front and THEN starting to accelerate. 5. Sitting on the tail of
> someone you're trying to pass is stressful - and it's needless
> stress, for the above reasons.
> > the horse carriage. It was too slow
> > for 3rd gear and I was in 2nd gear. The horse carriage seemed to
> > speed up as I was overtaking them (but can't be sure). I sped up
> > to about 30mph and was now astride the rear wheels of the
> > vehicle. I fumbled the 2-3rd gear change (seemed stuck and cost
> > me a few seconds to try again) and oncoming traffic lead by a
> > truck was now too close. There was enough space if I didn't
> > fumble the 2-3rd gear change and didn't expect my spot behind the
> > horse trailer to be closed up so quickly
> Big mistake number two: at that point you were NOT committed to the
> pass and should have braked, indicated left, and pulled back in
> again. If 'your spot' behind the trailer had been 'closed up'
> that's not YOUR problem
Actually it is , if the ops committed herself to a manouvre fucked
said manouvre up then tries to force herself back into the now
occupied position she will be at fault for any resulting accident
Sticking your breaks on and indicating your intention to pull in
doesnt mean the other drivers have to allow you in
- the person who 'closed up' the spot is
> driving FAR too close if there's no room for you to pull in, and
> they're going to HAVE to hit the brakes hard and make room for you
> when you pull back in. Don't hesitate to abort an overtake if
> you've misjudged, conditions change, or it's not safe!
> > So having no choice I floored the accelerator
> Big mistake number three: You weren't already at full throttle?!
> When overtaking, ALWAYS use full throttle! It's there to be used,
> and that's one of the things it's supposed to be used for!
Again utter bollocks you never race your engine at full throttle past
horses , what you should do is start the manouvre far earlier
building up your speed
> > to 60mph on 3rd gear.
> > The oncoming traffic went to the left of their lane to make way
> > for me and three vehicles were astride at one point.
> That's dangerous driving right there. If you had been caught you
> wouldn't be driving anywhere any time soon. It was a mistake born
> of inexperience and lack of confidence perhaps, but that's just as
> much dangerous driving as some young idiot showing off. This is
> exactly the kind of thing that leads to multi-fatal collisons.
> > If you were in that situation what would you have done? I couldn't
> > have gone back
> Yes you bloody well could and should.
Again drangerous driving what she should have done was allowed
herself enough room to make the manouvre , not tailgate and charge as
many younger or inexperienced drivers do
> > and it seems the only way was to get past and in front
> > of the horse trailer.
> > Thanks for any advice. Please don't flame me I'm a new driver and
> > my confidence has been badly shaken today already :(
> I think you need more lessons. Especially on overtaking. Seriously.
> I don't doubt you've had a hell of a fright and won't be overtaking
> anything faster than a guy with a Zimmer frame any time soon, but
> still. Did I read you're in Cambridge, in a previous thread? Call
> BSM Cambridge and ask if Dave Beer is still instructing. He's good.
Agreed more lessons might help plus read a copy of roadcraft
From: Steve Firth on 18 Jul 2010 13:12
Dave Head <rally2xs(a)att.net> wrote:
> >> Well, its not completely without risk, either. If he screws up, you
> >> are likely to become part of his accident.
> >Not if you are driving sensibly and in an appropriate position.
> Totally wrong. If you are following the trailer at whatever distance,
> he screws up the pass and someone else takes a "ditch" path to avoid
> them, the guy in the ditch may pop out of it just in time to nail you
> head-on, possibly not even in control of the vehicle by that time. And
> the guy passing you both is probably going to be going even faster
> than he would passing just you.
Well no it's not totally wrong but you seem to be pig-headed so I'll
leave it to you to have that last word you are so desperate to have.
Sadly I can't match your paranormal powers.