From: Mike Ross on
On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 13:03:37 -0400, Dave Head <rally2xs(a)att.net> wrote:

>On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 12:25:58 -0400, Mike Ross <mike(a)corestore.org>
>wrote:
>
>>>If you were in that situation what would you have done? I couldn't
>>>have gone back
>>
>>Yes you bloody well could and should.
>>
>>Mike
>
>That's a really tricky thing to do. You don't have much time, you
>have to decelerate sharply to get the nose of your vehicle behind the
>horsetrailer AND not be going so slow that you're going to crash the
>vehicle behind when you pull over to get behind the horsetrailer. You
>have to downshift quickly to do this and hit the throttle to match the
>horstrailer's speed as much as possible, and, well, its really tricky.

It's not THAT tricky but I take your point. But if you're in that place it's
usually the least-worst option; the OP is very lucky in that the road
configuration permitted the three-abreast without collision. If the road
configuration were a little different, the choice could easily be between your
'really tricky' move, and a likely-fatal head-on collision at speed.

As as had been repeatedly said, the answer of course is not to get into that
position in the first place. But given that it happened, and will happen again
to other road users, it's worth discussing.

Mike
--
http://www.corestore.org
'As I walk along these shores
I am the history within'
From: steve robinson on
Dave Head wrote:

> On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 17:04:33 +0000 (UTC), "steve robinson"
> <steve(a)colevalleyinteriors.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Mike Ross wrote:
> >
> >> On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 06:39:56 -0700 (PDT), Jo
> >> <joanna.hamilton90(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Hello all,
> >> >
> >> > I'm quite shaken as I had a brush with the grim reaper today :(
> >> >
> >> > Coming off a roundabout, I was driving along an A-road
> immediately >> > behind a horse carriage doing 20 mph in a 60 mph
> road. I was >> > about 150 yards past the roundabout and a queue of
> cars had built >> > up behind me.
> >> >
> >> > I felt pressured into overtaking
> >>
> >> Big mistake. You overtake when YOU are ready and not before. If
> >> you're driving a slowish vehicle and/or you're a slowish driver,
> >> leave a good gap between you and the vehicle you're trying to
> pass; >> do NOT sit on their tail. This has five good effects:
> >>
> >> 1. You're not tailgating!
> >> 2. You leave a gap into which a faster, more powerful car behind
> >> you can pull, as they overtake first you and then the vehicle in
> >> front of you. 3. You get much better sight lines to see the road
> >> ahead and judge when it's safe to overtake.
> >> 4. You have some space in which you can build up speed before
> >> crossing to the wrong side of the road to overtake; much better
> >> than pulling out while going at the same speed as the vehicle in
> >> front and THEN starting to accelerate. 5. Sitting on the tail of
> >> someone you're trying to pass is stressful - and it's needless
> >> stress, for the above reasons.
> >>
> >> > the horse carriage. It was too slow
> >> > for 3rd gear and I was in 2nd gear. The horse carriage seemed
> to >> > speed up as I was overtaking them (but can't be sure). I
> sped up >> > to about 30mph and was now astride the rear wheels of
> the >> > vehicle. I fumbled the 2-3rd gear change (seemed stuck and
> cost >> > me a few seconds to try again) and oncoming traffic lead
> by a >> > truck was now too close. There was enough space if I
> didn't >> > fumble the 2-3rd gear change and didn't expect my spot
> behind the >> > horse trailer to be closed up so quickly
> >>
> >> Big mistake number two: at that point you were NOT committed to
> the >> pass and should have braked, indicated left, and pulled back
> in >> again. If 'your spot' behind the trailer had been 'closed up'
> >> that's not YOUR problem
> >
> > Actually it is , if the ops committed herself to a manouvre fucked
> > said manouvre up then tries to force herself back into the now
> > occupied position she will be at fault for any resulting accident
>
> At that point, the focus is on surviving, and laws are of no
> consequence whatsoever. You do what you have to do in order not to
> die.
>
> > Sticking your breaks on and indicating your intention to pull in
> > doesnt mean the other drivers have to allow you in
>
> If they don't, they may die to.

If they do they may die as well as they become the meat in the
sandwhich
>
> > - the person who 'closed up' the spot is
> >> driving FAR too close if there's no room for you to pull in, and
> >> they're going to HAVE to hit the brakes hard and make room for
> you >> when you pull back in. Don't hesitate to abort an overtake if
> >> you've misjudged, conditions change, or it's not safe!
> >
> > Utter bollocks
>
> Yes, a following car blocking the area behind the horsetrailer is
> following too close. At 20 mph, that's 58 ft following distance for
> the recommended 2 seconds following distance, and should be
> available to pull into.

Was this the very same gap the op pulled out of , whilst its stupid
to drive so close its not an offence
>
> >> > So having no choice I floored the accelerator
> >>
> >> Big mistake number three: You weren't already at full throttle?!
> >> When overtaking, ALWAYS use full throttle! It's there to be used,
> >> and that's one of the things it's supposed to be used for!
> >
> > Again utter bollocks you never race your engine at full throttle
> > past horses , what you should do is start the manouvre far earlier
> > building up your speed
>
> Again, do you have a muffler problem? The critter isn't going to
> know if you have the throttle wide open otherwise, and passing is a
> full throttle proposition on a 2 lane road.
>
No i dont , however high revving engines emit far more noise , will
often frighten horses and cause them to bolt or behave irratically
not a wise thing on a two lane road .

The highway code even refers specifically how to pass horses

From: Mike Ross on
<snips>

On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 17:04:33 +0000 (UTC), "steve robinson"
<steve(a)colevalleyinteriors.co.uk> wrote:

>Mike Ross wrote:

>> Big mistake number two: at that point you were NOT committed to the
>> pass and should have braked, indicated left, and pulled back in
>> again. If 'your spot' behind the trailer had been 'closed up'
>> that's not YOUR problem
>
>Actually it is , if the ops committed herself to a manouvre fucked
>said manouvre up then tries to force herself back into the now
>occupied position she will be at fault for any resulting accident

If she's misjudged the overtake she will likely be partially at fault. The car
following the vehicle being overtaken will be more at fault because 1. they will
be driving FAR too close, beyond all doubt and 2. they will be guilty of
carelessness and lack of the anticipation a resonable and prudent driver is
expected to exercise, since they were driving FAR to close at a time when it was
especially unwise to do so!

If she persists in the overtake and ends up in a head-on collision she will be
100% at fault, unless there are unusual factors elsewhere - e.g. grossly
excessive speed by the oncoming vehicle.

So it's least worst option.

>Sticking your breaks on and indicating your intention to pull in
>doesnt mean the other drivers have to allow you in

It's not a question of 'allowing' anything; they're already guilty of driving
far too close if there isn't plenty room for her to pull in! I'm pretty sure
I've read of cases of drivers being prosecuted for serious offences for 'not
allowing' in such situations.

>- the person who 'closed up' the spot is
>> driving FAR too close if there's no room for you to pull in, and
>> they're going to HAVE to hit the brakes hard and make room for you
>> when you pull back in. Don't hesitate to abort an overtake if
>> you've misjudged, conditions change, or it's not safe!
>
>Utter bollocks

See above. You're showing signs of a dangerously territorial 'this is MY bit of
road and anything else is YOUR problem, you can't make ME move' attitude here, I
have to say.

>> > So having no choice I floored the accelerator
>>
>> Big mistake number three: You weren't already at full throttle?!
>> When overtaking, ALWAYS use full throttle! It's there to be used,
>> and that's one of the things it's supposed to be used for!
>
>Again utter bollocks you never race your engine at full throttle past
>horses , what you should do is start the manouvre far earlier
>building up your speed

I agree 100% when there are horses on the road; I'm always *extremely* careful
when passing horses on the road myself, and have often received a wave of thanks
or thumbs-up from the rider - I must be more considerate than the average
driver! But first, we're speaking generally here, and second, with respect to
the case that started it, she was passing a horse TRAILER or box, not a horse
being ridden on the road.

And I disagree about 'building up your speed' as you suggest; that's 100%
correct for overtaking cars, as I suggested myself, but you should CREEP past a
horse, giving it a wide berth and a very low speed differential - you never know
what might spook them and you must be prepared to stop instantly if required.

>> > to 60mph on 3rd gear.
>> > The oncoming traffic went to the left of their lane to make way
>> > for me and three vehicles were astride at one point.
>>
>> That's dangerous driving right there. If you had been caught you
>> wouldn't be driving anywhere any time soon. It was a mistake born
>> of inexperience and lack of confidence perhaps, but that's just as
>> much dangerous driving as some young idiot showing off. This is
>> exactly the kind of thing that leads to multi-fatal collisons.
>>
>> > If you were in that situation what would you have done? I couldn't
>> > have gone back
>>
>> Yes you bloody well could and should.
>
>Again drangerous driving what she should have done was allowed
>herself enough room to make the manouvre , not tailgate and charge as
>many younger or inexperienced drivers do

Of course, and I addressed those points in my original reply. But having fucked
up the overtake attempt it's almost always safer to pull back in, even if it's
tricky to do so, than press on and risk a head-on collision at ever-increasing
speed! That's bloody obvious.

+1 on 'Roadcraft'!

Mike
--
http://www.corestore.org
'As I walk along these shores
I am the history within'
From: Terry on
Gareth wrote:
> On 18/07/2010 14:39, Jo wrote:
>> Hello all,
>>
>> I'm quite shaken as I had a brush with the grim reaper today :(
>>
>> Coming off a roundabout, I was driving along an A-road immediately
>> behind a horse carriage doing 20 mph in a 60 mph road. I was about 150
>> yards past the roundabout and a queue of cars had built up behind me.
>>
>> I felt pressured into overtaking the horse carriage.
>
> An option here would be to leave a big enough gap between you and the
> horse carriage for other cars to overtake you. If you do this leave a
> really big gap so that it is clear to drivers behind that you have no
> intention of overtaking and there is plenty of room for them to safely
> get past you.

Which will get the other car where exactly?
From: R. Mark Clayton on

"Jo" <joanna.hamilton90(a)gmail.com> wrote in message
news:cc357b2e-5fa8-446f-b65b-8c46eb71b8da(a)w12g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
> Hello all,
>
> I'm quite shaken as I had a brush with the grim reaper today :(
>
> Coming off a roundabout, I was driving along an A-road immediately
> behind a horse carriage doing 20 mph in a 60 mph road. I was about 150
> yards past the roundabout and a queue of cars had built up behind me.
>
> I felt pressured into overtaking the horse carriage. It was too slow
> for 3rd gear and I was in 2nd gear. The horse carriage seemed to speed
> up as I was overtaking them (but can't be sure). I sped up to about
> 30mph and was now astride the rear wheels of the vehicle. I fumbled
> the 2-3rd gear change (seemed stuck and cost me a few seconds to try
> again) and oncoming traffic lead by a truck was now too close. There
> was enough space if I didn't fumble the 2-3rd gear change and didn't
> expect my spot behind the horse trailer to be closed up so quickly
>
> So having no choice I floored the accelerator to 60mph on 3rd gear.
> The oncoming traffic went to the left of their lane to make way for me
> and three vehicles were astride at one point.
>
> If you were in that situation what would you have done? I couldn't
> have gone back and it seems the only way was to get past and in front
> of the horse trailer.
>
> Thanks for any advice. Please don't flame me I'm a new driver and my
> confidence has been badly shaken today already :(
>
> Jo

Well several mistakes here

1. Too close to horse & carriage, you should have dropped back before trying
to overtake.

2. Very obviously not enough room to overtake (partly related to 1)

3. Unfamiliarity with car, so problems changing gear (you need more
experience before attempting this).

What should have happened: -

1. Drop back a bit to create a gap between you and the vehicle you propose
to overtake - this means you have room to accelerate AND can see past it
easily (e.g. if it is a box van)

2. When it looks clear to overtake accelerate and start pulling out.
If another [oncoming] vehicle appears then you can brake and pull into
the gap you created in 1. If not you have a good speed differential that
will reduce the time you are on the wrong side of the road.

3. Overtake the horse and carriage smoothly [in a higher gear] and quickly
and give it as wide a berth as possible so not to scare the horse.


Overtaking on a single carriageway road is beyond doubt the most dangerous
manoeuvre you will undertake, so the final advice is if you can't do it
don't.


I remember being behind a bloke like you (well worse really) on the A41
once. I was in something with a 3500cc engine and the numpty in front was
in a small Renault or similar and decided to overtake a van in front. It
was obvious that there was far too little room, so I anchored up (much to
the consternation of the vehicles behind me), while the Renault crawls past
the lead car. Fortunately the oncoming driver had sufficient wit and time
to brake hard and swerve to avoid, meaning that my manoeuvre [to avoid what
would have been a stationary bleeding wreck] was rendered superfluous - only
just though!