How would an experienced driver have handled this?
in [Cars]
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From: Ste on 18 Jul 2010 15:41 On 18 July, 14:39, Jo <joanna.hamilto...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hello all, > > I'm quite shaken as I had a brush with the grim reaper today :( > > Coming off a roundabout, I was driving along an A-road immediately > behind a horse carriage doing 20 mph in a 60 mph road. I was about 150 > yards past the roundabout and a queue of cars had built up behind me. > > I felt pressured into overtaking the horse carriage. It was too slow > for 3rd gear and I was in 2nd gear. The horse carriage seemed to speed > up as I was overtaking them (but can't be sure). This is a joke, surely? Did you see the driver start thrashing the horses? > I sped up to about > 30mph and was now astride the rear wheels of the vehicle. I fumbled > the 2-3rd gear change (seemed stuck and cost me a few seconds to try > again) and oncoming traffic lead by a truck was now too close. There > was enough space if I didn't fumble the 2-3rd gear change and didn't > expect my spot behind the horse trailer to be closed up so quickly > > So having no choice I floored the accelerator to 60mph on 3rd gear. > The oncoming traffic went to the left of their lane to make way for me > and three vehicles were astride at one point. If the road is sufficiently wide for 3 cars, I often perform the "meat in the sandwich" maneouver. I'm not sure whether this applied to your situation, however. > If you were in that situation what would you have done? I couldn't > have gone back and it seems the only way was to get past and in front > of the horse trailer. > > Thanks for any advice. Please don't flame me I'm a new driver and my > confidence has been badly shaken today already :( Proper planning and preparation prevents pisspoor performance. When the maneouver went wrong, you ought to have slowed down, indicated, and pulled back in (forcing your way back in if necesary). Also, if you started overtaking at 20mph, then you should not have even tried to change up to 3rd gear until you were past the carriage and doing at least 40-odd mph (and if it were a really close shave, then not before 50-odd mph). A common mistake many drivers make when overtaking is putting their foot down, but not being in the right gear for maximum acceleration.
From: Gareth on 18 Jul 2010 16:00 On 18/07/2010 20:25, Terry wrote: > Gareth wrote: >> On 18/07/2010 14:39, Jo wrote: >>> Hello all, >>> >>> I'm quite shaken as I had a brush with the grim reaper today :( >>> >>> Coming off a roundabout, I was driving along an A-road immediately >>> behind a horse carriage doing 20 mph in a 60 mph road. I was about 150 >>> yards past the roundabout and a queue of cars had built up behind me. >>> >>> I felt pressured into overtaking the horse carriage. >> >> An option here would be to leave a big enough gap between you and the >> horse carriage for other cars to overtake you. If you do this leave a >> really big gap so that it is clear to drivers behind that you have no >> intention of overtaking and there is plenty of room for them to safely >> get past you. > > Which will get the other car where exactly? In front of the OP so that she no longer feels "pressured into overtaking the horse carriage"
From: Steve Firth on 18 Jul 2010 16:25 Mike Ross <mike(a)corestore.org> wrote: > she was passing a horse TRAILER or box No, writing TRAILER in capitals still doesn't change the origial post which referred to a carriage.
From: steve robinson on 18 Jul 2010 16:36 Mike Ross wrote: > <snips> > > On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 17:04:33 +0000 (UTC), "steve robinson" > <steve(a)colevalleyinteriors.co.uk> wrote: > > > Mike Ross wrote: > > >> Big mistake number two: at that point you were NOT committed to > the >> pass and should have braked, indicated left, and pulled back > in >> again. If 'your spot' behind the trailer had been 'closed up' > >> that's not YOUR problem > > > > Actually it is , if the ops committed herself to a manouvre fucked > > said manouvre up then tries to force herself back into the now > > occupied position she will be at fault for any resulting accident > > If she's misjudged the overtake she will likely be partially at > fault. The car following the vehicle being overtaken will be more > at fault because 1. they will be driving FAR too close, beyond all > doubt and 2. they will be guilty of carelessness and lack of the > anticipation a resonable and prudent driver is expected to > exercise, since they were driving FAR to close at a time when it > was especially unwise to do so! I disagree , at 20 mph on dry roads most cars can stop far quicker than any lorry so its reasonable to close the gap down slightly if you to intend to overtake , if Jo decides to abort the overtake then thats her fault not the drivers behind When Jo hits the brakes (remember this is an inexperienced driver) its likely she will scrub off to much speed , even with a 15 or 20 yard gap its reasonable to assume that she is likely to either side swipe the car following or cause the car to brake heavily possibly getting herself rear ended This is one of the few occasions a rear end shunt is not the following cars fault > > If she persists in the overtake and ends up in a head-on collision > she will be 100% at fault, unless there are unusual factors > elsewhere - e.g. grossly excessive speed by the oncoming vehicle. > > So it's least worst option. I agree > > > Sticking your breaks on and indicating your intention to pull in > > doesnt mean the other drivers have to allow you in > > It's not a question of 'allowing' anything; they're already guilty > of driving far too close if there isn't plenty room for her to pull > in! I'm pretty sure I've read of cases of drivers being prosecuted > for serious offences for 'not allowing' in such situations. They are not travelling to close if they can safely stop if the vehicle directly in front of them stops abruptly , if Jo screws up her manouvre thats tough on her . They may well have been prosecuted but were they convicted , in these sought of senerios the police often use a scattergun approach and charge everyone In this senerio it could put the other driver at risk of being rear ended if he brakes sharply to let Jo in , better to leave her hanging out to dry and she takes her chances , self preservation etc > > > - the person who 'closed up' the spot is > >> driving FAR too close if there's no room for you to pull in, and > >> they're going to HAVE to hit the brakes hard and make room for > you >> when you pull back in. Don't hesitate to abort an overtake if > >> you've misjudged, conditions change, or it's not safe! > > > > Utter bollocks > > See above. You're showing signs of a dangerously territorial 'this > is MY bit of road and anything else is YOUR problem, you can't make > ME move' attitude here, I have to say. > Far from it , i call it self preservation , i am not going to perform a manouvre thats likely to put me at risk of being rear ended because some fool has fucked up an overtaking manouvre or possibly put the other drivers behind me at risk. I would rather be side swiped than end up as the meat in the sandwich , been thier before and even after 20 plus years my neck still plays up as does my back > >> > So having no choice I floored the accelerator > >> > >> Big mistake number three: You weren't already at full throttle?! > >> When overtaking, ALWAYS use full throttle! It's there to be used, > >> and that's one of the things it's supposed to be used for! > > > > Again utter bollocks you never race your engine at full throttle > > past horses , what you should do is start the manouvre far earlier > > building up your speed > > I agree 100% when there are horses on the road; I'm always > extremely careful when passing horses on the road myself, and have > often received a wave of thanks or thumbs-up from the rider - I > must be more considerate than the average driver! But first, we're > speaking generally here, and second, with respect to the case that > started it, she was passing a horse TRAILER or box, not a horse > being ridden on the road. We were passing a horse carriage , the op still hasnt made it clear what she means > > And I disagree about 'building up your speed' as you suggest; > that's 100% correct for overtaking cars, as I suggested myself, but > you should CREEP past a horse, giving it a wide berth and a very > low speed differential - you never know what might spook them and > you must be prepared to stop instantly if required. I disagree you have more chance of spooking them if you creep up on them and consequently having an accident than passing at a moderate speed in a high gear , wide birth and get clear > > >> > to 60mph on 3rd gear. > >> > The oncoming traffic went to the left of their lane to make way > >> > for me and three vehicles were astride at one point. > >> > >> That's dangerous driving right there. If you had been caught you > >> wouldn't be driving anywhere any time soon. It was a mistake born > >> of inexperience and lack of confidence perhaps, but that's just > as >> much dangerous driving as some young idiot showing off. This > is >> exactly the kind of thing that leads to multi-fatal collisons. > >> > >> > If you were in that situation what would you have done? I > couldn't >> > have gone back > >> > >> Yes you bloody well could and should. > > > > Again drangerous driving what she should have done was allowed > > herself enough room to make the manouvre , not tailgate and > > charge as many younger or inexperienced drivers do > > Of course, and I addressed those points in my original reply. But > having fucked up the overtake attempt it's almost always safer to > pull back in, even if it's tricky to do so, than press on and risk > a head-on collision at ever-increasing speed! That's bloody obvious. Agreed but Jo would also have to realise that other roadusers may not be accomadating if it means they could put themselves at risk of accident , injury or financial penalty > > +1 on 'Roadcraft'! > > Mike
From: steve robinson on 18 Jul 2010 16:43
R. Mark Clayton wrote: > > "Jo" <joanna.hamilton90(a)gmail.com> wrote in message > news:cc357b2e-5fa8-446f-b65b-8c46eb71b8da(a)w12g2000yqj.googlegroups.c > om... > > Hello all, > > > > I'm quite shaken as I had a brush with the grim reaper today :( > > > > Coming off a roundabout, I was driving along an A-road immediately > > behind a horse carriage doing 20 mph in a 60 mph road. I was > > about 150 yards past the roundabout and a queue of cars had built > > up behind me. > > > > I felt pressured into overtaking the horse carriage. It was too > > slow for 3rd gear and I was in 2nd gear. The horse carriage > > seemed to speed up as I was overtaking them (but can't be sure). > > I sped up to about 30mph and was now astride the rear wheels of > > the vehicle. I fumbled the 2-3rd gear change (seemed stuck and > > cost me a few seconds to try again) and oncoming traffic lead by > > a truck was now too close. There was enough space if I didn't > > fumble the 2-3rd gear change and didn't expect my spot behind the > > horse trailer to be closed up so quickly > > > > So having no choice I floored the accelerator to 60mph on 3rd > > gear. The oncoming traffic went to the left of their lane to > > make way for me and three vehicles were astride at one point. > > > > If you were in that situation what would you have done? I couldn't > > have gone back and it seems the only way was to get past and in > > front of the horse trailer. > > > > Thanks for any advice. Please don't flame me I'm a new driver and > > my confidence has been badly shaken today already :( > > > > Jo > > Well several mistakes here > > 1. Too close to horse & carriage, you should have dropped back > before trying to overtake. > > 2. Very obviously not enough room to overtake (partly related to 1) > > 3. Unfamiliarity with car, so problems changing gear (you need more > experience before attempting this). > > What should have happened: - > > 1. Drop back a bit to create a gap between you and the vehicle you > propose to overtake - this means you have room to accelerate AND > can see past it easily (e.g. if it is a box van) > > 2. When it looks clear to overtake accelerate and start pulling out. > If another [oncoming] vehicle appears then you can brake and pull > into the gap you created in 1. If not you have a good speed > differential that will reduce the time you are on the wrong side of > the road. > > 3. Overtake the horse and carriage smoothly [in a higher gear] and > quickly and give it as wide a berth as possible so not to scare the > horse. > > > Overtaking on a single carriageway road is beyond doubt the most > dangerous manoeuvre you will undertake, so the final advice is if > you can't do it don't. > > > I remember being behind a bloke like you (well worse really) on the > A41 once. I was in something with a 3500cc engine and the numpty > in front was in a small Renault or similar and decided to overtake > a van in front. It was obvious that there was far too little room, > so I anchored up (much to the consternation of the vehicles behind > me), while the Renault crawls past the lead car. Fortunately the > oncoming driver had sufficient wit and time to brake hard and > swerve to avoid, meaning that my manoeuvre [to avoid what would > have been a stationary bleeding wreck] was rendered superfluous - > only just though! Had a similar experience with a moped rider trying to overtake my van , he unfortunatly must have been about 5 feet from the back of my van in my blind spot then decided to perform the overtaking manouvre . Quick as you like he wipped out rung the neck of his machine then went splat into the artic comming the other way , never stood a chance |