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From: Fred on 29 Mar 2010 14:50
Hi,

I was driving down the road today and passed a petrol station. The
sign said that petrol was 117.9ppl, diesel was 117.9ppl, but lpg was
65.9ppl; so that's almost half the price of the other two fuels.

I remember looking for a new car six or seven years ago. I saw a Ford
Focus that had an LPG tank in the well where the spare tyre normally
goes. I don't know where they put the spare tyre though (under the
car?).

I didn't buy that car. At the time one of the reasons I walked away
was that there were few lpg selling stations but I've noticed a few
recently. Has lpg become more popular in the last six years? (I
realise that car had a petrol tank but what was the point buying a gas
car to use petrol 99% of the time).

Today I thought I would have a read of the maintenance group to look
for posts about lpg. I found a couple recommending the fuel.lpg group
but there doesn't seem to be much in there other than spam. Has that
group died?

I seem to remember that one litre of lpg is not equivalent to one
litre of petrol, but even so, with the massive price difference is lpg
better than petrol and even diesel? I'm talking about buying a car
that is already fitted with lpg, so the cost of a conversion would not
be relevant here.

Regarding the petrol tanks: how big are they? Are they small and
designed for emergency use when there is no gas or are they standard
size?

Some of the old posts mentioned that duty would be increased on lpg,
meaning the prices would meet those of petrol and diesel. These posts
are dated 2004 and nothing seems to have happened yet. Will it?

TIA
From: Adrian on 29 Mar 2010 15:41
Fred <fred(a)no-email.here.invalid> gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying:

> I don't know where they put the spare tyre though (under the car?).

In the bin.

> Regarding the petrol tanks: how big are they?

Full size, normally. It's not cost effective to remove and fit a smaller
one, unless you're really pushed for space on the install.

> Some of the old posts mentioned that duty would be increased on lpg,
> meaning the prices would meet those of petrol and diesel. These posts
> are dated 2004 and nothing seems to have happened yet. Will it?

I have no idea who the chancellor is going to be at the next budget, let
alone what he's going to announce.
From: hugh on 29 Mar 2010 16:43
In message <03t1r5lbcdl8a06alsf01gprjhttiki3k5(a)4ax.com>, Fred
<fred(a)no-email.here.invalid> writes
>Hi,
>
>I was driving down the road today and passed a petrol station. The
>sign said that petrol was 117.9ppl, diesel was 117.9ppl, but lpg was
>65.9ppl; so that's almost half the price of the other two fuels.
>
That's more than half the price according to my calculator
>I remember looking for a new car six or seven years ago. I saw a Ford
>Focus that had an LPG tank in the well where the spare tyre normally
>goes. I don't know where they put the spare tyre though (under the
>car?).
>

In a small car you would probably leave it at home and carry one of
these inflators instead. Vauxhall in their Vectras and Astras put a
false floor over the tank and install the spare wheel on top.
>I didn't buy that car. At the time one of the reasons I walked away
>was that there were few lpg selling stations but I've noticed a few
>recently. Has lpg become more popular in the last six years? (I
>realise that car had a petrol tank but what was the point buying a gas
>car to use petrol 99% of the time).
>
Gas cars are manufactured as petrol cars and hence have a normal petrol
tank. Location of filling points is relevant to the financial
calculations as to how far off your normal journeys you must deviate in
order to fill up.

>Today I thought I would have a read of the maintenance group to look
>for posts about lpg. I found a couple recommending the fuel.lpg group
>but there doesn't seem to be much in there other than spam. Has that
>group died?
>
Most active group is probably the Yahoo mailing list. Conversion is more
routine now so fewer problems to discuss.
>I seem to remember that one litre of lpg is not equivalent to one
>litre of petrol, but even so, with the massive price difference is lpg
>better than petrol and even diesel? I'm talking about buying a car
>that is already fitted with lpg, so the cost of a conversion would not
>be relevant here.
>
He caloric value of a litre of propane is a bit less (About 10%) than a
litre of petrol. However the price difference more than compensates for
that especially if you take out the conversion cost.
>Regarding the petrol tanks: how big are they? Are they small and
>designed for emergency use when there is no gas or are they standard
>size?
>
In the majority of cases the original petrol tank is left in situ. In
some vehicles, notably Range Rovers, Discoverys and Jeeps the original
petrol tank may be removed to make way for the gas tank and replaced
with a small petrol tank for emergency use only.
>Some of the old posts mentioned that duty would be increased on lpg,
>meaning the prices would meet those of petrol and diesel. These posts
>are dated 2004 and nothing seems to have happened yet. Will it?
>
>TIA

A few years ago (about 2004) the then Chancellor announced that the fuel
duty gap between petrol and LPG would be reduced by 1p per litre over a
period of 5 years (I think). However with all the deferrals and changes
to petrol duty it has been difficult to keep track of what is happening.
This uncertainty has had a detrimental effect on the conversion
industry.

HTH
--
hugh
"Believe nothing. No matter where you read it, Or who said it, Even if
I have said it, Unless it agrees with your own reason And your own
common sense." Buddha
From: Paul on 29 Mar 2010 19:39
On 29/03/2010 19:50, Fred wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I was driving down the road today and passed a petrol station. The
> sign said that petrol was 117.9ppl, diesel was 117.9ppl, but lpg was
> 65.9ppl; so that's almost half the price of the other two fuels.
>
> I remember looking for a new car six or seven years ago. I saw a Ford
> Focus that had an LPG tank in the well where the spare tyre normally
> goes. I don't know where they put the spare tyre though (under the
> car?).
>
> I didn't buy that car. At the time one of the reasons I walked away
> was that there were few lpg selling stations but I've noticed a few
> recently. Has lpg become more popular in the last six years? (I
> realise that car had a petrol tank but what was the point buying a gas
> car to use petrol 99% of the time).
>
> Today I thought I would have a read of the maintenance group to look
> for posts about lpg. I found a couple recommending the fuel.lpg group
> but there doesn't seem to be much in there other than spam. Has that
> group died?
>
> I seem to remember that one litre of lpg is not equivalent to one
> litre of petrol, but even so, with the massive price difference is lpg
> better than petrol and even diesel? I'm talking about buying a car
> that is already fitted with lpg, so the cost of a conversion would not
> be relevant here.
>
> Regarding the petrol tanks: how big are they? Are they small and
> designed for emergency use when there is no gas or are they standard
> size?
>
> Some of the old posts mentioned that duty would be increased on lpg,
> meaning the prices would meet those of petrol and diesel. These posts
> are dated 2004 and nothing seems to have happened yet. Will it?
>
> TIA

I used to have LPG in two of my previous cars and would happily have
again - blew the last one with a cylinder head gasket - never got round
to having it sorted out as an expensive 3.0l - not the gas fault.

Gas stations - there was one in every town three years ago - bound to be
better ratio now. Also in every town there was generally a gas place -
calor and the like - and they generally do it a bit cheaper than petrol
forecourts.

Generally the bigger body and bigger car engine the better the reason to
change - I had a couple of old Vauxhall Carlton 3.0l 24v - so the 70l
tank sat between the shocks in the back, taking up the space of a large
bag of golf clubs, but still leaving a large useable boot space..you
wouldn't want that in a metro.
Also power to weight is important - a 3.0l heaving around a 70kg plus
weight made little difference to performance, a metro is going to suffer.

As to cost - i worked out I averaged say 26 gallon on petrol, but the
equivalent of say 44 (in money spent) on lpg - a cracking saving, with a
slight loss of acceleration and top speed - again, unnoticeable on a big
car - but could be a pain on a small engine one.

Servicing - well the gas side- people would just shake their head - but
pretty reliable - it was just a glorified camping stove gubbins.
But plugs and oil stayed cleaner much longer than on petrol.


Would I do it again - if I wanted a big petrol car- yes.
If I wanted miles per gallon perfection I would have to do the maths as
I see modern Diesel cars have probably better cost per mile - it might
be better to go diesel than worry about the added complication of lpg.
Thats prob why it hasn't taken off more.
Small petrol car- not worth frigging about with.

hth




















From: Willy Eckerslyke on 30 Mar 2010 04:11
hugh wrote:
> In message <03t1r5lbcdl8a06alsf01gprjhttiki3k5(a)4ax.com>, Fred
> <fred(a)no-email.here.invalid> writes
>> Hi,
>>
>> I was driving down the road today and passed a petrol station. The
>> sign said that petrol was 117.9ppl, diesel was 117.9ppl, but lpg was
>> 65.9ppl; so that's almost half the price of the other two fuels.

> He caloric value of a litre of propane is a bit less (About 10%) than a
> litre of petrol.

It's worse than that. Energy content of lpg is about 77% that of petrol
because you also have to take the density into account.

If I'm working it out right, a pound's worth of petrol will get you 72%
as much energy as a pound's worth of lpg at the prices above. Depending
whether your car likes it or not, that means you'll either do 100 miles
for the cost of 72, or you'll just have 72% of the power.

> However the price difference more than compensates for
> that especially if you take out the conversion cost.

If the conversion costs 1000 quid, you'll need to spend nearly 3 grand
in fuel before breaking even. And that's ignoring any inconvenience.
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