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From: Marts on 26 Jul 2010 16:53
Doug Jewell wrote...

> Corse, for $30,000 you could buy 2 small petrol cars, and
> have some resale value after 3 years. That's a bloody lot of
> mileage that would need to be done for the electric car to
> be economically viable.

Isn't this about the promotion of electric vehicles, though?

I don't know if it's about any economic viability, rather, the promotion of
emerging technologies. And herein lies the scandal about the government ignoring
a local manufacturer of a new technology for a foreign owned one.

From: D Walford on 27 Jul 2010 05:40
On 27/07/2010 6:53 AM, Marts wrote:
> Doug Jewell wrote...
>
>> Corse, for $30,000 you could buy 2 small petrol cars, and
>> have some resale value after 3 years. That's a bloody lot of
>> mileage that would need to be done for the electric car to
>> be economically viable.
>
> Isn't this about the promotion of electric vehicles, though?
>
> I don't know if it's about any economic viability, rather, the promotion of
> emerging technologies. And herein lies the scandal about the government ignoring
> a local manufacturer of a new technology for a foreign owned one.
>
Nothing really all that new about the technology used in electric cars,
they have been using very similar technology in electric forklifts for a
very long time.
The only significant difference is the batteries, in a forklift weight
can be useful whereas in a car weight is a disadvantage.
Most of the components used in the Blade Electron are imported so its
local content and technology is limited.


Daryl
From: Marts on 27 Jul 2010 23:38
Doug Jewell wrote...

> Maximum range is 80 miles (128km), typically 60 miles
> (96km), close enough to 100.
> Charging is 6 hours @ 240V 13A which is 18.72kWH
> In QLD (and I'm using this cos I'm in QLD, dunno what other
> states pay, and don't really care), standard domestic tariff
> is 18.843c/kWH. So $3.52 for a full charge to give average
> of 100km.
>
> Compared with say the Mitsubishi Colt which is rated at
> 5.9L/100km, at $1.30/L it will cost $7.67 for 100km.
> So on raw energy cost, the electric car is about half the
> cost of the petrol.

We need to remember that it's an emerging technology, so naturally it will be
much more expensive.

Until battery technology improves out of sight we'd expect that these vehicles
would be more suited for city conditions.

What's the average Melburnian or Sydneysider daily commute? Would it be 100 km a
day?

One thing that we need to consider too is how much it would cost to recharge
when you're not at home. Will carparks have charging stations, and if so, what
will they charge?

Domestic tarrifs in Victoria are heading north of 20c/kwh too. So that too,
needs to be considered.

It's like solar power, I s'pose. Initial startup costs are quite hefty and the
return on investment suggests that you're better off investing your dough
elsewhere. But people do this because they have the dough and that it may make
them feel a bit better about themselves. And who are we to argue about that,
particularly if it's their dough.

As for Daryl's claim that this locally made car is a modified Getz I wasn't
aware of that.

From: Doug Jewell on 28 Jul 2010 06:37
Marts wrote:
> Doug Jewell wrote...
>
>> Maximum range is 80 miles (128km), typically 60 miles
>> (96km), close enough to 100.
>> Charging is 6 hours @ 240V 13A which is 18.72kWH
>> In QLD (and I'm using this cos I'm in QLD, dunno what other
>> states pay, and don't really care), standard domestic tariff
>> is 18.843c/kWH. So $3.52 for a full charge to give average
>> of 100km.
>>
>> Compared with say the Mitsubishi Colt which is rated at
>> 5.9L/100km, at $1.30/L it will cost $7.67 for 100km.
>> So on raw energy cost, the electric car is about half the
>> cost of the petrol.
>
> We need to remember that it's an emerging technology, so naturally it will be
> much more expensive.
Indeed - and mass production should cause some drops in
cost, but there are still other issues.
>
> Until battery technology improves out of sight we'd expect that these vehicles
> would be more suited for city conditions.
Electric motors are very efficient, so to increase range not
much can be done about reducing energy requirements. Instead
to increase range you have to increase storage.

The trouble with increasing storage is not just the
batteries, but getting the charge into them. The full
capacity of the iMiev at 18.7kwH (67MJ) is about the same as
the energy in 2L of petrol. At 13A it takes 6 hours to
charge, it only takes a few seconds to dispense 2L of
petrol. Even if you are charging from a 20A 3 Phase outlet,
the most it can deliver is 14kW per hour, so it would still
take more than an hour to charge (assuming you had a battery
technology that could be charged at that rate without damage).
>
> What's the average Melburnian or Sydneysider daily commute? Would it be 100 km a
> day?
No idea, but in brisvegas a commute to the city centre from
say springfield, is 30km one way. There are plenty of
suburbs further out than springfield. Drive in, then drive
home, then charge overnight is feasible. But you wouldn't be
able to drive the gold coast for a day at the beach and get
home. That makes them very impractical as an only car -
you'd almost certainly need to have a 2nd car, in which case
any cost effectiveness it may have had takes a drastic
nose-dive.
>
> One thing that we need to consider too is how much it would cost to recharge
> when you're not at home. Will carparks have charging stations, and if so, what
> will they charge?
Exactly.
>
> Domestic tarrifs in Victoria are heading north of 20c/kwh too. So that too,
> needs to be considered.
Electricity is getting dreadfully expensive. 1 kwH is 3.6MJ,
1L of petrol has 32MJ and 1L of diesel about 38MJ.
1L of petrol is currently about $1.30 (including a bunch of
exhorbitant taxes), the same energy in electricity is about
$1.60.
Given that thermal coal is currently about $105/tonne and in
a 35% efficient power station will yield about 2300kWH of
energy per tonne, (4.5c per kwH), I think we are getting
overcharged quite dramatically for our electricity.
>
> It's like solar power, I s'pose. Initial startup costs are quite hefty and the
> return on investment suggests that you're better off investing your dough
> elsewhere. But people do this because they have the dough and that it may make
> them feel a bit better about themselves. And who are we to argue about that,
> particularly if it's their dough.
I just think that investing money into R&D on electric
vehicles is shooting the wrong target. Pure electric systems
cannot hope to offer anything like the convenience that we
have from liquid/gas fuel vehicles. I think instead of
directing research toward the rechargeable electric car,
research should be put toward creating renewable fuels.

Those fuels can then either be consumed in a traditional
combustion engine, or converted to electricity for electric
motors. Even if a low-cost, light-weight, long-lasting,
high-capacity rechargeable battery can be produced, the
issue will still be recharge times to get an adequate amount
of energy in there to be able to go a reasonable distance.
Liquid or gas OTOH can hold a lot of energy in a small,
lightweight, easily transported package.
>
> As for Daryl's claim that this locally made car is a modified Getz I wasn't
> aware of that.
It takes a little of the gloss off the argument that the
government should be buying locally, but the fact remains
that the "local" car is still significantly cheaper than the
iMiev.
>


--
What is the difference between a duck?
From: D Walford on 28 Jul 2010 06:57
On 28/07/2010 1:38 PM, Marts wrote:

> As for Daryl's claim that this locally made car is a modified Getz I wasn't
> aware of that.
>

Google Blade Electron, the info is on their web site.
Not only is it a modified Getz, the motor and speed controller are
imported from the US so there isn't a lot of local content.


Daryl
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