Monbiot on speed cameras and the real war
in [UK Drivers]
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From: Adrian on 31 Jul 2010 04:20 Tony Raven <traven(a)gotadsl.co.uk> gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying: >>> And wasn't the 70mph limit first introduced in 1965 because of a >>> series of massive motorway pileups in foggy weather? >> Umm, would you like to think about that one for a moment...? > Not really. > > The Times: > November 25th 1965 > > 70 M.P.H. Limit For Four Months > From Our Motoring Correspondent > > A temporary speed limit of 30 m.p.h. is to be put on Britain's 350 miles > of motorways during bad weather-fog. ice or snow-and an experimental 70 > m.p.h. limit will be imposed on all unrestricted roads, including > motorways, for four months, starting just before Christmas and ending > after Easter. Announcing the move in the Commons yesterday, Mr. Fraser, > Minister of Transport, said: > > " I am sorry this experiment has been virtually forced on us by the > behaviour of an irresponsible minority of drivers who are a danger both > to themselves and to everyone else. But if it is a life-saver it will be > worthwhile." > > Mr Fraser, at a heated press conference later, conceded that this could > be the beginning of a permanent overall speed limit in Britain. Apart from the fact that that snippet disproves your claim, it does nothing to enlighten you as to the rather huge logical flaw in your claim.
From: Tony Dragon on 31 Jul 2010 04:32 Phil W Lee wrote: > "Brimstone" <brimstone(a)hotmail.com> considered Fri, 30 Jul 2010 > 09:52:05 +0100 the perfect time to write: > >> "Adrian" <toomany2cvs(a)gmail.com> wrote in message >> news:8bfi1fF5hpU7(a)mid.individual.net... >>> "Brimstone" <brimstone(a)hotmail.com> gurgled happily, sounding much like >>> they were saying: >>> >>>> I can't think of any powered vehicles permitted to use the public >>>> highway which are not required to be registered and to display a VED >>>> disc even if the rate is zero. Perhaps you can fill in the gap in my >>>> knowledge? >>> Electric bicycles? >> Is one. >> > I have a vague recollection, which could be entirely wrong, that there > is some peculiarity of fire engines kept and normally used at an > airport which might give them this exemption. > I know they don't need to have an MOT, which would normally preclude a > VED disc. > But they are allowed on the road under certain circumstances. > > Thinking of which, any vehicle proceeding to a pre-booked MOT test or > returning from one, whether successful or otherwise, is also exempt, > along with vehicles covered by a trade-plate. Are not farm tractors allowed to use the roads for limited journeys between fields, for example, also exempt? -- Tony Dragon
From: Tony Dragon on 31 Jul 2010 04:38 JNugent wrote: > Tony Raven wrote: >> Matt B wrote: >>> On 30/07/2010 19:45, Tony Raven wrote: >>>> Adrian wrote: >>>>> Tony Raven <traven(a)gotadsl.co.uk> gurgled happily, sounding much like >>>>> they >>>>> were saying: >>>>> >>>>>> And wasn't the 70mph limit first introduced in 1965 because of a >>>>>> series >>>>>> of massive motorway pileups in foggy weather? >>>>> >>>>> Umm, would you like to think about that one for a moment...? >>>> >>>> Not really. >>> >>> Only a politician would assume that because an accident happened in >>> fog, that a good-weather speed limit was required - and that that >>> limit should be set at a value that could barely be achieved by most >>> cars on the road! >>> >> >> There had been several big motorway pile-ups (some of which I remember >> well and one of which my father was involved in) caused by motorists >> bowling into think fog banks without slowing down. Hence the 30mph >> when foggy limit and the flashing motorway lights to go with it. > > No. > > That was later. > > I remember them well. > >> The reason for the 70mph limit was probably because it was generally >> uncontentious because many drivers couldn't exceed that speed. > > So what would have been the point (at that time)? > >> But those that could were causing the problem with cars clocked up to >> 150mph and drivers trying to race the new high speed train along the >> M1. I seem to recall unofficial races being held up the M1 to Watford >> Gap and back. > > Envy. > > Always ugly. You can often see somebody trying to race a Eurostar where the M20 runs alongside the high speed line. -- Tony Dragon
From: Tony Raven on 31 Jul 2010 04:41 Adrian wrote: > Tony Raven <traven(a)gotadsl.co.uk> gurgled happily, sounding much like they > were saying: > >>>> And wasn't the 70mph limit first introduced in 1965 because of a >>>> series of massive motorway pileups in foggy weather? > >>> Umm, would you like to think about that one for a moment...? > >> Not really. >> >> The Times: >> November 25th 1965 >> >> 70 M.P.H. Limit For Four Months >> From Our Motoring Correspondent >> >> A temporary speed limit of 30 m.p.h. is to be put on Britain's 350 miles >> of motorways during bad weather-fog. ice or snow-and an experimental 70 >> m.p.h. limit will be imposed on all unrestricted roads, including >> motorways, for four months, starting just before Christmas and ending >> after Easter. Announcing the move in the Commons yesterday, Mr. Fraser, >> Minister of Transport, said: >> >> " I am sorry this experiment has been virtually forced on us by the >> behaviour of an irresponsible minority of drivers who are a danger both >> to themselves and to everyone else. But if it is a life-saver it will be >> worthwhile." >> >> Mr Fraser, at a heated press conference later, conceded that this could >> be the beginning of a permanent overall speed limit in Britain. > > Apart from the fact that that snippet disproves your claim, it does > nothing to enlighten you as to the rather huge logical flaw in your claim. I'm sure we're all on tenterhooks waiting for you to reveal how clever you are. -- Tony " I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong." Bertrand Russell
From: Tony Raven on 31 Jul 2010 05:55
JNugent wrote: > >> >> There had been several big motorway pile-ups (some of which I >> remember well and one of which my father was involved in) caused by >> motorists bowling into think fog banks without slowing down. Hence >> the 30mph when foggy limit and the flashing motorway lights to go >> with it. > > No. > > That was later. > > I remember them well. > You remember poorly or are remembering something else. "“At the outset they were a bit wary because there was no speed limit,” says former motorway policeman Trevor Houlton. “Everyone thought it was going to be a racetrack.” That turned out to be a self-fulfilling prophesy, because two years later, a series of crashes on the M6 in Staffordshire persuaded the Government to introduce a 70mph limit everywhere. The worst accident happened in thick fog at Hanchurch on Bonfire Night in 1965, when four people were killed in a pile-up involving 30 vehicles. One of the police officers at the scene was Ronald Biggs, who pulled a man out of his car with his jacket on fire after a vehicle on the central reservation exploded. He was called to an emergency meeting at the Ministry of Transport, which was followed by an immediate 70mph limit, with a clause advising drivers to keep to 30mph in fog." http://www.thisisstaffordshire.co.uk/news/news/Debut-marked-days-open-road/article-230570-detail/article.html "There was a frightful fog early in 1964 when there was a pile-up of 200 cars on the M l." Hansard 16 November 1965. >> The reason for the 70mph limit was probably because it was generally >> uncontentious because many drivers couldn't exceed that speed. > > So what would have been the point (at that time)? > Its all there in Hansard for 10 November 1965 from the Minister of Transport following the Nov 5 pile up. " My hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary received full reports from the police forces of Lancashire and Staffordshire on Monday, 8th November. The conclusion to be drawn from these reports is that the multiple accidents were caused by vehicles travelling at speeds which were too high for the prevailing conditions. The police representatives are convinced, as I am, that the remedy is to drive more slowly and carefully. Speeds must be reduced, whatever may be the means by which this is achieved. I have called a conference on Friday of this week of all the chief constables and county surveyors concerned with the control of motorways to consider proposals for action. My National Road Safety Advisory Council has advised me to introduce urgently a speed limit on 160 lengths of motorway during fog of 20 m.p.h. and a general experimental speed limit of 70 m.p.h. on all motorways for the winter months. But, whatever we do, nothing can absolve the individual motorist of his responsibility for adjusting his driving to the prevailing conditions." "In one pile-up at the weekend a police vehicle was involved. It was well lit up, was light in colour and had a blue oscillating light on top flashing all the time, and still other vehicles came pounding along the motorway, rammed into it and thereby forced it into vehicles in front, causing a pile-up. It is clear that drivers are travelling much too fast for these conditions and will have to drive much more slowly." A 70mph speed limit was then introduced on November 25. There is little escaping the conclusion that it was introduced directly as a result of pile-ups on the motorway caused by drivers demonstrably travelling much too fast for the conditions when left to their own devices. -- Tony " I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong." Bertrand Russell |