My drive this morning, nearly went pear shaped
in [UK Drivers]
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From: MrBitsy on 13 Apr 2010 16:59 On 10/04/2010 13:57, ChelseaTractorMan wrote: > On Sat, 10 Apr 2010 13:16:04 +0100, Hugo Nebula<abuse(a)localhost> > wrote: > >>> Moral... remember some people out there REALLY cannot drive, but have >>> cars. >> >> Including those who rely on other people's indicators? > > congratulations, you get the uk rec driving booby prize for > predictably trying to point out a weakness on the part of the teller > of a tale of bad driving. But do not worry, they all do it, its > correct form! :-) The truth hurts sometimes. Many get into scrapes like this and realise it is partly their fault for making assumptions. Others just blab about the other guy being totally at fault. You gave a great clue to the possible problem up ahead ... 'everybody all lined up for the split between the A2 slip and the M25' So, we have a car (a small hatch no less), doing '30ish' while approaching a 'split'. Your anticipation at this point is woefully lacking, demonstrated by the plan you made - to move into a gap between lorries. Maybe the speed of the hatch was low, because they were looking for a gap between the lorries to move into? > Now tell me how "I relied on his indicators"? I was overtaking a slow > car, the fact it appeared to be about to "turn" left didn't effect my > road positioning, it in fact "turned" right without warning into my > path. Its error was compounded by indicating it was turning left. You said ... 'What's this ahead? Small hatch, going slow, (30ish)indicating left. There's a small slip ahead for Dartford, just before the main A2 slip, he is probably going off there. No problemo' Your driving plan was made was based on an assumption the hatch was going to turn left, 'he is probably going off there'. Your driving plan did not anticipate any move to the right because the left indicator was flashing - you disregarded the clues of a possible move to the right (slow speed, split in road & gap in lorries). > If drivers are supposed to take *no* account of indicators, why fit > them? > > It was the nearest miss I have had for many years, I have mused how it > could be avoided, the only thing that comes to mind is allowing an > entire clear lane when overtaking!! Anticipation would have avoided this close call. Your thoughts would have been better along the lines of ... 'Small hatch up ahead indicating left, probably going to Dartford. However, we are approaching a 'split' ahead, so I had better not move into the gap in lorries in case his indication is wrong, after all he is traveling slowly - maybe he is going right? I'll stay behind in case this guy goes right' > Maybe avoid large difference in > speed between you and the overtakee? But then you increase the chance > of being driven into, although you increase the chance of the other > driver spotting you. > I suspect its one of those dangers you can do little more about beyond > being ready to move to the right and knowing there is no faster > traffic coming up behind as you overtake. Observe and use the information to anticipate scenarios. -- MrBitsy
From: MrBitsy on 13 Apr 2010 17:02 On 11/04/2010 09:13, Harry Bloomfield wrote: > ChelseaTractorMan laid this down on his screen : >> I suspect its one of those dangers you can do little more about beyond >> being ready to move to the right and knowing there is no faster >> traffic coming up behind as you overtake. > > There comes a point where you have to make a decision and take gamble. > Sometimes passing slowly, with great care is the way to go - at others > speed and as wide a berth as you can give them, with a blast on the horn > minimises the risk. A blast on the horn? Surely that just means you're being a bully and not using the horn as allowed in the HC? :-) -- -- MrBitsy
From: ChelseaTractorMan on 14 Apr 2010 08:04 On Tue, 13 Apr 2010 21:59:51 +0100, MrBitsy <ray.keattch(a)infinity.com> wrote: >So, we have a car (a small hatch no less), doing '30ish' while >approaching a 'split'. Your anticipation at this point is woefully >lacking, demonstrated by the plan you made - to move into a gap between >lorries. what the hell are you talking about? What lack of anticipation? >Maybe the speed of the hatch was low, because they were looking for a >gap between the lorries to move into? while indicating left. The gap was big enough for me to use to overtake, the lorries were going at the usual 55, no need to slow to 30ish. >> Now tell me how "I relied on his indicators"? I was overtaking a slow >> car, the fact it appeared to be about to "turn" left didn't effect my >> road positioning, it in fact "turned" right without warning into my >> path. Its error was compounded by indicating it was turning left. > >You said ... > >'What's this ahead? Small hatch, going slow, (30ish)indicating left. >There's a small slip ahead for Dartford, just before the main A2 slip, >he is probably going off there. No problemo' > >Your driving plan was made was based on an assumption the hatch was >going to turn left, 'he is probably going off there'. Wrong. I never made that assumption. I said "probably". What does "probably" mean? In other words I though he *might* go off. > Your driving plan >did not anticipate any move to the right because the left indicator was >flashing - you disregarded the clues of a possible move to the right >(slow speed, split in road & gap in lorries). Rubbish. "Slow speed" was a clue to going left, not right, why do you slow to 30 to move into traffic doing 55? "split in road" was also a clue to the car going left. As were the indicators. All the "clues" pointed to it going left. My "plan" was simply based on there being a car ahead, which you overtake on the right, if its indicating left or not. What exactly would you do differently? >> If drivers are supposed to take *no* account of indicators, why fit >> them? >> >> It was the nearest miss I have had for many years, I have mused how it >> could be avoided, the only thing that comes to mind is allowing an >> entire clear lane when overtaking!! > >Anticipation would have avoided this close call. Your thoughts would >have been better along the lines of ... >'Small hatch up ahead indicating left, probably going to Dartford. >However, we are approaching a 'split' ahead, so I had better not move >into the gap in lorries in case his indication is wrong, after all he is >traveling slowly - maybe he is going right? I'll stay behind in case >this guy goes right' so you avoid overtaking cars signaling left do you? Total bolox. >> Maybe avoid large difference in >> speed between you and the overtakee? But then you increase the chance >> of being driven into, although you increase the chance of the other >> driver spotting you. >> I suspect its one of those dangers you can do little more about beyond >> being ready to move to the right and knowing there is no faster >> traffic coming up behind as you overtake. > >Observe and use the information to anticipate scenarios. this post is a prime example of rec.driving posters hilarious need to rubbish anybody who reports somebody else's bad driving here. Its also laughably pompous. Your claim to "lack of anticipation" is plucked out of thin air. Removing all the extraneous data, I was overtaking a car in L1 by moving to L2, what exactly are you suggesting one should do differently in that circumstance? -- Mike. .. . Gone beyond the ultimate driving machine.
From: ChelseaTractorMan on 14 Apr 2010 08:34 On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 13:04:44 +0100, ChelseaTractorMan <mr.c.tractor(a)hotmail.co.uk> wrote: >this post is a prime example of rec.driving posters hilarious need to >rubbish anybody who reports somebody else's bad driving here. (you should observe indicators and use them as likely indications of intent - obviously you do not pull out in front of a car because it "appears" from indicators to be turning off before it reaches you. However, its absurd to suggest that you would not make a manoeuvre that you would make **in the absence of indicators**, when the indicators *reinforce* what you are doing is perfectly safe and routine). -- Mike. .. . Gone beyond the ultimate driving machine.
From: MrBitsy on 14 Apr 2010 11:36
On 14/04/2010 13:04, ChelseaTractorMan wrote: > On Tue, 13 Apr 2010 21:59:51 +0100, MrBitsy<ray.keattch(a)infinity.com> > wrote: > > >> So, we have a car (a small hatch no less), doing '30ish' while >> approaching a 'split'. Your anticipation at this point is woefully >> lacking, demonstrated by the plan you made - to move into a gap between >> lorries. >> > what the hell are you talking about? What lack of anticipation? > The hatch ahead was approaching a 'split', therefore the car ahead could move left or right. From your description, it appears you thought it more likely the car was going left because of the slow speed and left indicator. Good anticipation would also allow for the possibility of the left indicator being given in error, and the slow speed because the driver was unsure which direction to take. >> Maybe the speed of the hatch was low, because they were looking for a >> gap between the lorries to move into? >> > while indicating left. The gap was big enough for me to use to > overtake, the lorries were going at the usual 55, no need to slow to > 30ish. > It matters not what you think the other driver IS doing, but what they MIGHT do. > >>> Now tell me how "I relied on his indicators"? I was overtaking a slow >>> car, the fact it appeared to be about to "turn" left didn't effect my >>> road positioning, it in fact "turned" right without warning into my >>> path. Its error was compounded by indicating it was turning left. >>> >> You said ... >> >> 'What's this ahead? Small hatch, going slow, (30ish)indicating left. >> There's a small slip ahead for Dartford, just before the main A2 slip, >> he is probably going off there. No problemo' >> >> Your driving plan was made was based on an assumption the hatch was >> going to turn left, 'he is probably going off there'. >> > Wrong. I never made that assumption. I said "probably". What does > "probably" mean? In other words I though he *might* go off. > So there was a chance he may not go off. Given that chance, why put yourself into a place he MAY go, given the great clues he gave you - slow speed while approaching a 'split' If I was approaching this guy, I would be worried about that slow speed - if he was sure which way he was going, why such a slow speed? >> Your driving plan >> did not anticipate any move to the right because the left indicator was >> flashing - you disregarded the clues of a possible move to the right >> (slow speed, split in road& gap in lorries). >> > Rubbish. > "Slow speed" was a clue to going left, not right, why do you slow to > 30 to move into traffic doing 55? > The slow speed was more a clue of NOT going left! To me, going slow approaching a split shows the driver is not sure where they are going. > "split in road" was also a clue to the car going left. > As were the indicators. > All the "clues" pointed to it going left. > Ok, so now you have learnt your anticipation is poor, because he went right! Given you were completely wrong in your assumptions, why are you still so defensive? Clearly the other driver made errors, but your anticipation was limited based on what you observed. > My "plan" was simply based on there being a car ahead, which you > overtake on the right, if its indicating left or not. What exactly > would you do differently? > I don't think I could have been clearer in my response. The clues the other driver gave were VERY clear of a possible move to the right... A left indicator but very slow speed - indecision? They were approaching a 'split' so a move either way was possible (especially with that slow speed). A gap in the lorries they may go into with a late decision. >>> If drivers are supposed to take *no* account of indicators, why fit >>> them? >>> >>> It was the nearest miss I have had for many years, I have mused how it >>> could be avoided, the only thing that comes to mind is allowing an >>> entire clear lane when overtaking!! >>> >> Anticipation would have avoided this close call. Your thoughts would >> have been better along the lines of ... >> > >> 'Small hatch up ahead indicating left, probably going to Dartford. >> However, we are approaching a 'split' ahead, so I had better not move >> into the gap in lorries in case his indication is wrong, after all he is >> traveling slowly - maybe he is going right? I'll stay behind in case >> this guy goes right' >> > so you avoid overtaking cars signaling left do you? Total bolox. > No, I don't avoid overtaking vehicles if they are indicating left, but I sure wouldn't overtake a car that was giving such a clear set of clues they may go right. When I approach a 'split' on a motorway, I would not put myself alongside a vehicle in the lane to go left, because they may make a late decision to go right. I would do one of three things... 1.. Pass them well before the split. 2.. Hang back to give them space to move into. 3.. Use another lane to the right, to give them space to move into. I choose one of those three options based on conditions at the time. >>> Maybe avoid large difference in >>> speed between you and the overtakee? But then you increase the chance >>> of being driven into, although you increase the chance of the other >>> driver spotting you. >>> I suspect its one of those dangers you can do little more about beyond >>> being ready to move to the right and knowing there is no faster >>> traffic coming up behind as you overtake. >>> >> Observe and use the information to anticipate scenarios. >> > this post is a prime example of rec.driving posters hilarious need to > rubbish anybody who reports somebody else's bad driving here. > I was not trying to 'rubbish' you. I was however pointing out the error you made that compounded the error made by the other driver. > Its also laughably pompous. Your claim to "lack of anticipation" is > plucked out of thin air. No, it was taken from your description of the incident, that clearly showed your anticipation was poor. > Removing all the extraneous data, I was > overtaking a car in L1 by moving to L2, what exactly are you > suggesting one should do differently in that circumstance? > The 'extraneous' data is the very information that warned you of the move the other driver may of taken... A driver approaching a 'split' may go either way. A driver driving very slow approaching a 'split' is showing indecision. We both know that drivers often indicate wrongly or make last minute decisions. -- MrBitsy Rover 75 |