From: Nate Nagel on
On 06/25/2010 09:18 PM, lil abner wrote:
> Jim Yanik wrote:
>> lil abner <@daisy.mae> wrote in news:246Vn.127$0A5.31(a)newsfe22.iad:
>>
>>> Speeders & Drunk Drivers Are Murderers wrote:
>>>> http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jF7BKtnASmpRaPV00FqD
>>>> 2EjFij3wD9GDU8DO4
>>>> New hires in UAW no longer tops in manufacturing
>>>> By DEE-ANN DURBIN and TOM KRISHER (AP) ? 6 days ago
>>>>
>>>> DETROIT ? Every day at a General Motors plant near Lansing, Mich.,
>>>> workers drive hundreds of Buick Enclaves ? many with leather seats
>>>> for seven and on-board video systems ? off the assembly line.
>>>>
>>>> Driving one home would be tough for the plant's newest workers, whose
>>>> annual pay is less than the $35,000 it costs to buy even the cheapest
>>>> Enclave. Newly hired members of the United Auto Workers at GM, Ford
>>>> and Chrysler earn about $14 per hour, half what veterans make under
>>>> their current contract.
>>>>
>>>> It's a far cry from the days when the union autoworker had one of the
>>>> sweetest deals in American labor. And within the Enclave plant near
>>>> Lansing, the disparity creates mixed emotions, including some
>>>> resentment, among the 130 recent hires.
>>>>
>>>> "It's difficult to look across the line at someone getting paid more
>>>> for doing the same job you're doing," said Steve Barnas, the plant's
>>>> union bargaining chairman.
>>>>
>>>> For decades, the UAW tugged wages upward. In 1960, a UAW member made
>>>> 16 percent more than the average American manufacturing worker. By
>>>> 2006, the figure was 74 percent. Today, new hires in the UAW make
>>>> about 20 percent less than the average.
>>>>
>>>> (snip)
>>> Do you know what 14 an hour is? Try buying a new home on that or
>>> providing for a family.
>>> 14.00 an hour is no more than 1.50 an hour in 1970 or less. You do the
>>> math on inflation/devaluation.
>>> It is just wage slavery the reason the globalist worship Mexico and
>>> Chjina.
>>
>> companies don't pay salaries based on what it takes to provide for a
>> family or buy a house,they pay based on what the JOB is worth.
>>
> They pay based on what labor is available.

So if legal Americans are willing to do the job for $14 an hour, then
the job is worth $14 an hour.

I apologize if that sounds cold and heartless. I don't mean it to sound
that way. But obviously GM isn't making extortionate profits on its
vehicles these days, so it's not like the big greedy capitalists are
buying fourth mansions with all the money they're extorting from the
workers - they're fighting for survival. I feel for people barely
scraping by, I do - but the cold hard truth is that the economy cannot
sustain paying them more than what they're paid. Unless, of course, you
want to pay $50K for your next new Chevy?

Maybe people don't need new cars every three years? (and that's why I
am not a big fan of American cars, but I digress.)

> Now days Wall Street dictates
> the wages and tries to get people, at below decent wages, off the street
> to fill jobs. this is why they encourage Illegal Aliens to cross the
> border. They don't want to come to work every day, can;t do the job or
> don't care about the job they do. There is no reward, respect or loyalty
> from the Company. They can't keep good Employees and the other don't
> stay anyway.
> The goal of the Global Corporate Wall Street is to reduce wages to the
> lowest common denominator like maybe India. They will make up for volume
> sold by crowding as many Illegal Aliens, into the Country as they can
> and cutting content and quality and eliminating competition.

Can you try that again please? This time have a point and make sense.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
From: Dave Head on
On Fri, 25 Jun 2010 13:55:21 -0400, lil abner <@daisy.mae> wrote:

>Speeders & Drunk Drivers Are Murderers wrote:
>>
>> http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jF7BKtnASmpRaPV00FqD2EjFij3wD9GDU8DO4
>>
>> New hires in UAW no longer tops in manufacturing
>> By DEE-ANN DURBIN and TOM KRISHER (AP) ? 6 days ago
>>
>> DETROIT ? Every day at a General Motors plant near Lansing, Mich.,
>> workers drive hundreds of Buick Enclaves ? many with leather seats for
>> seven and on-board video systems ? off the assembly line.
>>
>> Driving one home would be tough for the plant's newest workers, whose
>> annual pay is less than the $35,000 it costs to buy even the cheapest
>> Enclave. Newly hired members of the United Auto Workers at GM, Ford
>> and Chrysler earn about $14 per hour, half what veterans make under
>> their current contract.
>>
>> It's a far cry from the days when the union autoworker had one of the
>> sweetest deals in American labor. And within the Enclave plant near
>> Lansing, the disparity creates mixed emotions, including some
>> resentment, among the 130 recent hires.
>>
>> "It's difficult to look across the line at someone getting paid more
>> for doing the same job you're doing," said Steve Barnas, the plant's
>> union bargaining chairman.
>>
>> For decades, the UAW tugged wages upward. In 1960, a UAW member made
>> 16 percent more than the average American manufacturing worker. By
>> 2006, the figure was 74 percent. Today, new hires in the UAW make
>> about 20 percent less than the average.
>>
>> (snip)
>Do you know what 14 an hour is? Try buying a new home on that or
>providing for a family.
>14.00 an hour is no more than 1.50 an hour in 1970 or less. You do the
>math on inflation/devaluation.
>It is just wage slavery the reason the globalist worship Mexico and Chjina.

Yeah, but everyone is celebrating the mean old unions getting
destroyed. We are on a voluntary rush toward $2/hr or less, and not
doing a D thing about the illegals that will come in and work for tha
too.

BHO & Company will not be satisfied until they have the entire
population of Mexico here, and working for that $2/hr, while American
citizens go to work at Wal Mart for... $2/hr. It'll be that low
because of the supply and demand of labor, and supply will be huge,
and demand will be low. Unemployment rate should get up around 30% -
40% eventually with all the illegals, low pay, etc. etc.

We're on track for an economic train wreck, with full cooperation and
advocacy of the gov't, who will be glad to pick up the pieces and
institute sweeping socialism to save us from simply starving. In the
end, we should have a country of the very, very rich and the very,
very poor, and nobody in between.

Meanwhile, nobody wants to resist the demise of the last good jobs
that can be had by people who are not on the Einstein end of the IQ
spectrum. Just great. There's really no hope for this country, as
we're doing this to ourselves, willingly.
From: Nate Nagel on
On 06/25/2010 09:51 PM, lil abner wrote:
> Nate Nagel wrote:
>> On 06/25/2010 09:18 PM, lil abner wrote:
>>> Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>> lil abner <@daisy.mae> wrote in news:246Vn.127$0A5.31(a)newsfe22.iad:
>>>>
>>>>> Speeders & Drunk Drivers Are Murderers wrote:
>>>>>> http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jF7BKtnASmpRaPV00FqD
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2EjFij3wD9GDU8DO4
>>>>>> New hires in UAW no longer tops in manufacturing
>>>>>> By DEE-ANN DURBIN and TOM KRISHER (AP) ? 6 days ago
>>>>>>
>>>>>> DETROIT ? Every day at a General Motors plant near Lansing, Mich.,
>>>>>> workers drive hundreds of Buick Enclaves ? many with leather seats
>>>>>> for seven and on-board video systems ? off the assembly line.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Driving one home would be tough for the plant's newest workers, whose
>>>>>> annual pay is less than the $35,000 it costs to buy even the cheapest
>>>>>> Enclave. Newly hired members of the United Auto Workers at GM, Ford
>>>>>> and Chrysler earn about $14 per hour, half what veterans make under
>>>>>> their current contract.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's a far cry from the days when the union autoworker had one of the
>>>>>> sweetest deals in American labor. And within the Enclave plant near
>>>>>> Lansing, the disparity creates mixed emotions, including some
>>>>>> resentment, among the 130 recent hires.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "It's difficult to look across the line at someone getting paid more
>>>>>> for doing the same job you're doing," said Steve Barnas, the plant's
>>>>>> union bargaining chairman.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For decades, the UAW tugged wages upward. In 1960, a UAW member made
>>>>>> 16 percent more than the average American manufacturing worker. By
>>>>>> 2006, the figure was 74 percent. Today, new hires in the UAW make
>>>>>> about 20 percent less than the average.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (snip)
>>>>> Do you know what 14 an hour is? Try buying a new home on that or
>>>>> providing for a family.
>>>>> 14.00 an hour is no more than 1.50 an hour in 1970 or less. You do the
>>>>> math on inflation/devaluation.
>>>>> It is just wage slavery the reason the globalist worship Mexico and
>>>>> Chjina.
>>>>
>>>> companies don't pay salaries based on what it takes to provide for a
>>>> family or buy a house,they pay based on what the JOB is worth.
>>>>
>>> They pay based on what labor is available.
>>
>> So if legal Americans are willing to do the job for $14 an hour, then
>> the job is worth $14 an hour.
>>
>> I apologize if that sounds cold and heartless. I don't mean it to
>> sound that way. But obviously GM isn't making extortionate profits on
>> its vehicles these days, so it's not like the big greedy capitalists
>> are buying fourth mansions with all the money they're extorting from
>> the workers - they're fighting for survival. I feel for people barely
>> scraping by, I do - but the cold hard truth is that the economy cannot
>> sustain paying them more than what they're paid. Unless, of course,
>> you want to pay $50K for your next new Chevy?
>>
>> Maybe people don't need new cars every three years? (and that's why I
>> am not a big fan of American cars, but I digress.)
>>
>>> Now days Wall Street dictates
>>> the wages and tries to get people, at below decent wages, off the street
>>> to fill jobs. this is why they encourage Illegal Aliens to cross the
>>> border. They don't want to come to work every day, can;t do the job or
>>> don't care about the job they do. There is no reward, respect or loyalty
>>> from the Company. They can't keep good Employees and the other don't
>>> stay anyway.
>>> The goal of the Global Corporate Wall Street is to reduce wages to the
>>> lowest common denominator like maybe India. They will make up for volume
>>> sold by crowding as many Illegal Aliens, into the Country as they can
>>> and cutting content and quality and eliminating competition.
>>
>> Can you try that again please? This time have a point and make sense.
>>
>> nate
>>
> I can't address how much GM makes but there is 40% somewhere between
> production and the showroom. I can't count the times Dealers have told
> me they are losing money on every sale but the next time you look they
> are expanding. The Ceo and Board are making billions. they effectively
> control to the point of ownership, or use to anyway.
> All that aside labor is worth whatever they can get it for. The workers
> that unionize are trying to preserve their interests in the companies
> and a decent wage. The Company is trying to destroy unions and get labor
> as cheap as possible.

All most likely true, and they meet somewhere in the middle.

> depressing real wages is in Wall Street's interest
> not America's. The idea that Americans should start living and working
> like slave labor in China is unacceptable. is this our Country or Global
> Banking and Merchants?

Do you buy stuff?

Do you ever *not* buy stuff because you think the price is higher than
is "fair?" Or maybe you think it *is* fair, but you just can't afford
it, so you still don't buy it.

It's the same thing.

nate


--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
From: Nate Nagel on
On 06/25/2010 10:00 PM, Dave Head wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Jun 2010 13:55:21 -0400, lil abner<@daisy.mae> wrote:
>
>> Speeders& Drunk Drivers Are Murderers wrote:
>>>
>>> http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jF7BKtnASmpRaPV00FqD2EjFij3wD9GDU8DO4
>>>
>>> New hires in UAW no longer tops in manufacturing
>>> By DEE-ANN DURBIN and TOM KRISHER (AP) ? 6 days ago
>>>
>>> DETROIT ? Every day at a General Motors plant near Lansing, Mich.,
>>> workers drive hundreds of Buick Enclaves ? many with leather seats for
>>> seven and on-board video systems ? off the assembly line.
>>>
>>> Driving one home would be tough for the plant's newest workers, whose
>>> annual pay is less than the $35,000 it costs to buy even the cheapest
>>> Enclave. Newly hired members of the United Auto Workers at GM, Ford
>>> and Chrysler earn about $14 per hour, half what veterans make under
>>> their current contract.
>>>
>>> It's a far cry from the days when the union autoworker had one of the
>>> sweetest deals in American labor. And within the Enclave plant near
>>> Lansing, the disparity creates mixed emotions, including some
>>> resentment, among the 130 recent hires.
>>>
>>> "It's difficult to look across the line at someone getting paid more
>>> for doing the same job you're doing," said Steve Barnas, the plant's
>>> union bargaining chairman.
>>>
>>> For decades, the UAW tugged wages upward. In 1960, a UAW member made
>>> 16 percent more than the average American manufacturing worker. By
>>> 2006, the figure was 74 percent. Today, new hires in the UAW make
>>> about 20 percent less than the average.
>>>
>>> (snip)
>> Do you know what 14 an hour is? Try buying a new home on that or
>> providing for a family.
>> 14.00 an hour is no more than 1.50 an hour in 1970 or less. You do the
>> math on inflation/devaluation.
>> It is just wage slavery the reason the globalist worship Mexico and Chjina.
>
> Yeah, but everyone is celebrating the mean old unions getting
> destroyed. We are on a voluntary rush toward $2/hr or less, and not
> doing a D thing about the illegals that will come in and work for tha
> too.
>
> BHO& Company will not be satisfied until they have the entire
> population of Mexico here, and working for that $2/hr, while American
> citizens go to work at Wal Mart for... $2/hr. It'll be that low
> because of the supply and demand of labor, and supply will be huge,
> and demand will be low. Unemployment rate should get up around 30% -
> 40% eventually with all the illegals, low pay, etc. etc.
>
> We're on track for an economic train wreck, with full cooperation and
> advocacy of the gov't, who will be glad to pick up the pieces and
> institute sweeping socialism to save us from simply starving. In the
> end, we should have a country of the very, very rich and the very,
> very poor, and nobody in between.
>
> Meanwhile, nobody wants to resist the demise of the last good jobs
> that can be had by people who are not on the Einstein end of the IQ
> spectrum. Just great. There's really no hope for this country, as
> we're doing this to ourselves, willingly.

We're in for an economic train wreck sooner or later no matter what happens.

Honestly, a significant devaluation of the dollar would go a long way
towards solving a lot of these problems, but it would be painful.
Unfortunately I (NB: I am not an economist) can't think of any likely
unfolding of things that doesn't involve economic pain.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
From: Dave Head on
On Fri, 25 Jun 2010 22:04:04 -0400, Nate Nagel <njnagel(a)roosters.net>
wrote:

>On 06/25/2010 10:00 PM, Dave Head wrote:
>> On Fri, 25 Jun 2010 13:55:21 -0400, lil abner<@daisy.mae> wrote:
>>
>>> Speeders& Drunk Drivers Are Murderers wrote:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jF7BKtnASmpRaPV00FqD2EjFij3wD9GDU8DO4
>>>>
>>>> New hires in UAW no longer tops in manufacturing
>>>> By DEE-ANN DURBIN and TOM KRISHER (AP) ? 6 days ago
>>>>
>>>> DETROIT ? Every day at a General Motors plant near Lansing, Mich.,
>>>> workers drive hundreds of Buick Enclaves ? many with leather seats for
>>>> seven and on-board video systems ? off the assembly line.
>>>>
>>>> Driving one home would be tough for the plant's newest workers, whose
>>>> annual pay is less than the $35,000 it costs to buy even the cheapest
>>>> Enclave. Newly hired members of the United Auto Workers at GM, Ford
>>>> and Chrysler earn about $14 per hour, half what veterans make under
>>>> their current contract.
>>>>
>>>> It's a far cry from the days when the union autoworker had one of the
>>>> sweetest deals in American labor. And within the Enclave plant near
>>>> Lansing, the disparity creates mixed emotions, including some
>>>> resentment, among the 130 recent hires.
>>>>
>>>> "It's difficult to look across the line at someone getting paid more
>>>> for doing the same job you're doing," said Steve Barnas, the plant's
>>>> union bargaining chairman.
>>>>
>>>> For decades, the UAW tugged wages upward. In 1960, a UAW member made
>>>> 16 percent more than the average American manufacturing worker. By
>>>> 2006, the figure was 74 percent. Today, new hires in the UAW make
>>>> about 20 percent less than the average.
>>>>
>>>> (snip)
>>> Do you know what 14 an hour is? Try buying a new home on that or
>>> providing for a family.
>>> 14.00 an hour is no more than 1.50 an hour in 1970 or less. You do the
>>> math on inflation/devaluation.
>>> It is just wage slavery the reason the globalist worship Mexico and Chjina.
>>
>> Yeah, but everyone is celebrating the mean old unions getting
>> destroyed. We are on a voluntary rush toward $2/hr or less, and not
>> doing a D thing about the illegals that will come in and work for tha
>> too.
>>
>> BHO& Company will not be satisfied until they have the entire
>> population of Mexico here, and working for that $2/hr, while American
>> citizens go to work at Wal Mart for... $2/hr. It'll be that low
>> because of the supply and demand of labor, and supply will be huge,
>> and demand will be low. Unemployment rate should get up around 30% -
>> 40% eventually with all the illegals, low pay, etc. etc.
>>
>> We're on track for an economic train wreck, with full cooperation and
>> advocacy of the gov't, who will be glad to pick up the pieces and
>> institute sweeping socialism to save us from simply starving. In the
>> end, we should have a country of the very, very rich and the very,
>> very poor, and nobody in between.
>>
>> Meanwhile, nobody wants to resist the demise of the last good jobs
>> that can be had by people who are not on the Einstein end of the IQ
>> spectrum. Just great. There's really no hope for this country, as
>> we're doing this to ourselves, willingly.
>
>We're in for an economic train wreck sooner or later no matter what happens.
>
>Honestly, a significant devaluation of the dollar would go a long way
>towards solving a lot of these problems, but it would be painful.
>Unfortunately I (NB: I am not an economist) can't think of any likely
>unfolding of things that doesn't involve economic pain.
>
>nate

I can. Its called the Fair Tax. www.fairtax.org. You really have to
study this - its simple but its not - and it took me about 2 months to
get the details of everything understood and see what a turnaround it
would be.

The best thing about the Fair Tax is that it gets rid of the income
taxes - all of 'em - personal, corporate, self employment, capital
gains, gift, alternative minimum, estate, social security, medicare,
etc. etc.

It institutes a consumption tax, which broadens the tax base to
basically everybody above the poverty level and who are citizens, and
everyone else in the country whether or not they are above the poverty
level (sucks to be you, illegals...).

It would untax the corporations and make essentially a zero income tax
environment for business, save the state taxes, and you'll always be
able to find a state that doesn't have an income tax if you're serious
about your business profiting. I understand there are 5 such states
now.

I could enjoy getting every penny of my paycheck, instead of having
$14,000 taken out and sent to Washington every year. Hey, in 2 years,
I'll be able to get the "over 65" exemption... big whoop... wouldn't
it be much better if I could get all my money from my "401K-like"
gov't thrift savings plan? Yeah, it would...

And the criminals would be paying taxes, and tourists would be paying
taxes, and illegals would be paying taxes, and... anyone that buys a
Big Mac or a big-screen TV is going to pay the consumption tax that is
the Fair Tax.

But THAT would stop the exodus of jobs out of the country (the income
tax is what's causing it, btw, not the labor rates - it only costs 30
- 33 hrs of labor to build a car now, and that is figured at about
$78/hr, so that's about $2,500 per car. But the income tax is 2nd
highest in the world, and is passed on to consumers. How much $$$ is
that? How much does taxing the profits on all the parts suppliers to
the auto industry at 40% and all the labor of the workers in the
factories, assuming the car company itself has a profit? And then
there's the 7.65% of the worker's gross salary tha goes for SS and
medicare, that the worker gets to keep, and it is "shadowed" by an
"employer's share" equal amount of tax that the employer would now not
have to pay. That's a lot of money too that could go to lowering the
price of an American car.

American cars, and lots of other stuff are ALMOST competititve now. If
we knock a 40% tax out of the equation, how will American business
compete both domestically and internationally? Much, much better than
they do now is the answer.

Yeah, I think the Fair Tax would save our country. Do I think it'll
happen? Nope - its so fantastic to have an actual answer, that I
don't think enough people will believe it to make it happen. Read the
link - study it for a few months - see for yourself.

Dave Head
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