From: Matthew Russotto on
In article <hre4cf1ul(a)news5.newsguy.com>,
Tony Harding <tharding(a)newsguy.com> wrote:
>On 04/24/10 20:18, Philip Nasadowski wrote:
>> In article<hquq6g21h6l(a)news6.newsguy.com>,
>> Tony Harding<tharding(a)newsguy.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Wouldn't the radiation sterilize the fish?
>>
>> What radiation?
>
>I thought we were discussing the failure of the (an) Indian Point
>nuclear facility, hence, the assumption there'll be some excess radiation.

Not a failure. Just the discharge of secondary (non-radioactive)
coolant water into the Hudson. It's hot, but only in terms of
temperature.
--
The problem with socialism is there's always
someone with less ability and more need.
From: Tony Harding on
On 05/08/10 17:25, Matthew Russotto wrote:
> In article<hre4cf1ul(a)news5.newsguy.com>,
> Tony Harding<tharding(a)newsguy.com> wrote:
>> On 04/24/10 20:18, Philip Nasadowski wrote:
>>> In article<hquq6g21h6l(a)news6.newsguy.com>,
>>> Tony Harding<tharding(a)newsguy.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Wouldn't the radiation sterilize the fish?
>>>
>>> What radiation?
>>
>> I thought we were discussing the failure of the (an) Indian Point
>> nuclear facility, hence, the assumption there'll be some excess radiation.
>
> Not a failure. Just the discharge of secondary (non-radioactive)
> coolant water into the Hudson. It's hot, but only in terms of
> temperature.

Oh, no excess radiation, never mind.
From: joel garry on
On Apr 22, 12:51 am, Glen Labah <gl4...(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
> In article <nasadowsk-582A8F.07415420042...(a)news.optonline.net>,
>  Philip Nasadowski <nasado...(a)usermale.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > In article <gl4317-C82827.21001319042...(a)feeder.eternal-september.org>,
> >  Glen Labah <gl4...(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > Actually, you can run a power plant without heating up the river.
>
> > When Indian Point 2 & 3 were being planned, Con Ed wanted to build
> > cooling towers.  The environmentalists opposed them, because it would
> > 'spoil the view'.
>
> > Cooling towers aren't a bad thing, but they do have the disadvantage of
> > drawing a bit of power - on a large plant like IP, you'd be looking at
> > something like 20 - 40 MW per unit.  That's all pumping losses (!).
>
> > IIRC, Palo Verde is unique in the world for being the only nuke that's
> > not near a river or body of water.  The plant uses recycled sewage for
> > the condensers...
>
> Granted, it was back in the 1980s, but when I went on a plant tour (yes,
> at that time nuke plants could have plant tours open to the general
> public), but the way I remember it, the Joseph Farley plant in Alabama
> didn't use much at all in the way of river water, because the river was
> simply too small to serve as enough of a heat sink.
>
> Therefore, their system involves what look like large air conditioning
> condensers.
>
> It could be they suck in the water and do evaporative cooling with their
> fans (which is probably far more likely), but I was given the impression
> they were 100% air cooled.
>
> Certainly, having a nuke plant far from water is a rare thing, but I
> think one of the South African plants is quite far away from water.
>
> However, there are certainly coal plants that are quite far from water,
> and they need cooling capacity just like a nuke plant does.  Witness the
> one near Farmington, New Mexico.  There isn't even much in the way of
> sewage water too cool that thing.  There are a fair number of coal
> plants throughout the west that are in similar circumstances.
>
> --

In the San Diego area, there are old-tech gas fired plants that
require ocean cooling. Companies want to replace them with modern air-
cooled plants, which don't require any water. But of course, coastal
real estate in southern California is some of the most expensive in
the world. And there is a perpetual water shortage. And all the
wires go there. And there are big freeways that are tough to move.

A company proposed using some of the waste heat and pumping capacity
for the one in Carlsbad to make a reverse osmosis water purification
plant. After many years of hoop-jumping, they are finally about to
get 'er done. But of course, the old plant is going to be replaced by
an air cooled plant, and the locals want to build hotels there.

It's just an unsolvable problem, planning large infrastructure over
long periods of time. Technology changes, societies desires change,
distribution of money moves around. Large scale power distribution in
the US came about as a solution to Depression problems. But isn't
that what government is for? Power companies have an oligopoly, they
don't want to lose it, and they want to control distributed energy
generation in a manner that violates free market tenets. The whole
electric system is fragile, a bunch of people buying plug-in vehicles
may have some difficult consequences.

http://legacy.signonsandiego.com/news/northcounty/jenkins/20071117-9999-1mi17jenkins.html
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2009/sep/09/power-plants-closure-urged/
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/may/14/explanation-of-blackout-falls-short-critics-say/
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/feb/17/sunrise-powerlink-opponents-suing-feds/
http://legacy.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20070120/news_1b20power.html
http://www.bakersfield.com/news/business/economy/x1664565569/PG-E-debates-Proposition-16-in-Bakersfield

Getting back to the subject, this morning a late model Mustang Cobra
parked next to me at the ATM. It had a hood scoop with a notation
about Nitrous injection. I thought it would make a neat picture,
water droplets from the mist on the shiny silver, but I didn't want to
freak out the owner.

jg
--
@home.com is bogus.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joel_garry/4594236718/

From: SeaWoe on
On May 17, 3:33 pm, joel garry <joel-ga...(a)home.com> wrote:
> On Apr 22, 12:51 am, Glen Labah <gl4...(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article <nasadowsk-582A8F.07415420042...(a)news.optonline.net>,
> >  Philip Nasadowski <nasado...(a)usermale.com> wrote:
>
> > > In article <gl4317-C82827.21001319042...(a)feeder.eternal-september.org>,
> > >  Glen Labah <gl4...(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Actually, you can run a power plant without heating up the river.
>
> > > When Indian Point 2 & 3 were being planned, Con Ed wanted to build
> > > cooling towers.  The environmentalists opposed them, because it would
> > > 'spoil the view'.
>
> > > Cooling towers aren't a bad thing, but they do have the disadvantage of
> > > drawing a bit of power - on a large plant like IP, you'd be looking at
> > > something like 20 - 40 MW per unit.  That's all pumping losses (!).
>
> > > IIRC, Palo Verde is unique in the world for being the only nuke that's
> > > not near a river or body of water.  The plant uses recycled sewage for
> > > the condensers...
>
> > Granted, it was back in the 1980s, but when I went on a plant tour (yes,
> > at that time nuke plants could have plant tours open to the general
> > public), but the way I remember it, the Joseph Farley plant in Alabama
> > didn't use much at all in the way of river water, because the river was
> > simply too small to serve as enough of a heat sink.
>
> > Therefore, their system involves what look like large air conditioning
> > condensers.
>
> > It could be they suck in the water and do evaporative cooling with their
> > fans (which is probably far more likely), but I was given the impression
> > they were 100% air cooled.
>
> > Certainly, having a nuke plant far from water is a rare thing, but I
> > think one of the South African plants is quite far away from water.
>
> > However, there are certainly coal plants that are quite far from water,
> > and they need cooling capacity just like a nuke plant does.  Witness the
> > one near Farmington, New Mexico.  There isn't even much in the way of
> > sewage water too cool that thing.  There are a fair number of coal
> > plants throughout the west that are in similar circumstances.
>
> > --
>
> In the San Diego area, there are old-tech gas fired plants that
> require ocean cooling.  Companies want to replace them with modern air-
> cooled plants, which don't require any water.  But of course, coastal
> real estate in southern California is some of the most expensive in
> the world.  And there is a perpetual water shortage.  And all the
> wires go there.  And there are big freeways that are tough to move.
>
> A company proposed using some of the waste heat and pumping capacity
> for the one in Carlsbad to make a reverse osmosis water purification
> plant.  After many years of hoop-jumping, they are finally about to
> get 'er done.  But of course, the old plant is going to be replaced by
> an air cooled plant, and the locals want to build hotels there.
>
> It's just an unsolvable problem, planning large infrastructure over
> long periods of time.  Technology changes, societies desires change,
> distribution of money moves around.  Large scale power distribution in
> the US came about as a solution to Depression problems.  But isn't
> that what government is for?  Power companies have an oligopoly, they
> don't want to lose it, and they want to control distributed energy
> generation in a manner that violates free market tenets.  The whole
> electric system is fragile, a bunch of people buying plug-in vehicles
> may have some difficult consequences.
>
> http://legacy.signonsandiego.com/news/northcounty/jenkins/20071117-99...http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2009/sep/09/power-plants-closure-u...http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/may/14/explanation-of-blackou...http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/feb/17/sunrise-powerlink-oppo...http://legacy.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20070120/news_1b20power.htmlhttp://www.bakersfield.com/news/business/economy/x1664565569/PG-E-deb...
>
> Getting back to the subject, this morning a late model Mustang Cobra
> parked next to me at the ATM.  It had a hood scoop with a notation
> about Nitrous injection.  I thought it would make a neat picture,
> water droplets from the mist on the shiny silver, but I didn't want to
> freak out the owner.
>
> jg
> --
> @home.com is bogus.http://www.flickr.com/photos/joel_garry/4594236718/- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

How about the Marines giving the parts of Pendleton back to the
state, which than sells it to developrers. with the money
paying off the state debt. Thde Marines can then have the land along
the Mexican border as far as AZ for desert trauning?
(Amphib stuff done on the Silver Strand.)
From: Patrick Scheible on
SeaWoe <midlant(a)earthlink.net> writes:

> How about the Marines giving the parts of Pendleton back to the
> state, which than sells it to developrers. with the money
> paying off the state debt. Thde Marines can then have the land along
> the Mexican border as far as AZ for desert trauning?
> (Amphib stuff done on the Silver Strand.)

Giving? In my experience, unused military bases are sold to the state
or local governments at or near current market value. That's true
even if the land was given to the military in the first place.

-- Patrick