Paul Smith
in [UK Drivers]
|
From: MrBitsy on 19 Dec 2007 07:16 Brimstone wrote: > MrBitsy wrote: >> Clive George wrote: >>> "MrBitsy" <ray(a)nowhere.com> wrote in message >>> news:OWZ9j.10620$h35.4554(a)newsfe2-gui.ntli.net... >>>> Clive George wrote: >>>>> "MrBitsy" <ray(a)nowhere.com> wrote in message >>>>> news:deZ9j.12144$ov2.11527(a)newsfe5-win.ntli.net... >>>>>> DavidR wrote: >>>>>>> "MrBitsy" <ray(a)nowhere.com> wrote >>>>>>>> DavidR wrote: >>>>>>>>> "MrBitsy" <ray(a)nowhere.com> wrote >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Many cyclists, like pedestrians, seem oblivious in very >>>>>>>>>> simple ways to keep themselves safe - not obeying red lights >>>>>>>>>> for instance. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Is this dangerous? Are there any figures to bear it out? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Are you seriously suggestion it is safe to pass red traffic >>>>>>>> lights under normal conditions? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The question makes no such suggestion. I am asking you - is it >>>>>>> dangerous? And please give reasons. Then I will offer my >>>>>>> opinion. >>>>>> >>>>>> You don't know why it would be dangerous to not obey red traffic >>>>>> lights? >>>>> >>>>> I can think of cases where it would be safe to not obey red >>>>> traffic lights. If you can't, then you're pretty dim. >>>> >>>> Are we talking everyday normal use of traffic controlled junctions? >>> >>> Define that a bit better :-) The strict answer is "it depends". >>> >>> (coz I'm not Brimstone, I'll not stop there.) >>> >>> Red traffic lights don't just happen at traffic controlled junctions >>> - road works and road crossings are the two other ones I can think >>> of. So that's one reason why your question isn't helpful. But here's >>> the main one: >>> Safety when not obeying them isn't an absolute - just as you say >>> safe speed isn't the absolute prescribed figure. It depends on the >>> circumstances - what other vehicles/people are present, how much can >>> you see, how fast are they going. You're very keen on observing the >>> hazards and making an appropriate decision when it comes to speed >>> limits - why not apply this to other laws too? After all, it's easy >>> to provide cases where it is perfectly safe to ignore a red traffic >>> light - and indeed, it's even easy to provide them where it's not >>> only safe, but doesn't even slightly affect other road users. >>> And that applies no matter what your mode of transport. Of course, >>> the fact that it's rather easier when you're small, manoeverable and >>> have better opportunities for observation could be a reason for >>> considering some modes rather more than others (and indeed the law >>> recognises this to an extent). >> >> When choosing a speed to travel at, all hazzards, road & weather >> conditions are taken into account. I am always going to be travelling >> on the correct side of the road, in a direction other road users and >> pedestrians expect me to be going. A 10% difference in speed is not >> going to catch someone out, if the driver has chosen that speed on an >> accurate assesment of those conditions. >> >> A red traffic light is an absolute message to stop. I know this and >> all other road users are expecting me to comply with it. Other road >> users will be approaching green traffic lights expecting the road to >> be clear. Many motorists will not be observing either side of the >> junction for road users not obeying the red. Therefore, not obeying a >> red traffic signal, has far more risks associated with it than going >> a little faster than a posted speed limit - one that has no idea of >> the conditions when I pass it. > > What if there are no other road users? What about it? -- MrBitsy
From: Brimstone on 19 Dec 2007 07:17 Rob Morley wrote: > In article <5YSdnZkXE_xGsPXanZ2dnUVZ8sGvnZ2d(a)bt.com>, Brimstone > brimstone520-ng01(a)yahoo.co.uk says... > >> As would not "driving Minis as fast I could around roundabouts" > > Where's the fun in that? I was driving at legal speeds, had right of > way, road conditions and visibility good ... Just because you're in the right doesn't keep you alive.
From: Brimstone on 19 Dec 2007 07:18 Rob Morley wrote: > In article <lfqdnXa6PIQClfTanZ2dnUVZ8q6onZ2d(a)bt.com>, Brimstone > brimstone520-ng01(a)yahoo.co.uk says... >> Peter Clinch wrote: >>> Adrian wrote: >>> [bike bell] >>>> It's still a legal requirement. >>> >>> To be fitted at sale, not to be fitted in use. >>> >> Oh dear. >> > Why? What is the purpose of a bell or horn on a vehicle?
From: Brimstone on 19 Dec 2007 07:20 MrBitsy wrote: > Brimstone wrote: >> MrBitsy wrote: >>> Clive George wrote: >>>> "MrBitsy" <ray(a)nowhere.com> wrote in message >>>> news:OWZ9j.10620$h35.4554(a)newsfe2-gui.ntli.net... >>>>> Clive George wrote: >>>>>> "MrBitsy" <ray(a)nowhere.com> wrote in message >>>>>> news:deZ9j.12144$ov2.11527(a)newsfe5-win.ntli.net... >>>>>>> DavidR wrote: >>>>>>>> "MrBitsy" <ray(a)nowhere.com> wrote >>>>>>>>> DavidR wrote: >>>>>>>>>> "MrBitsy" <ray(a)nowhere.com> wrote >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Many cyclists, like pedestrians, seem oblivious in very >>>>>>>>>>> simple ways to keep themselves safe - not obeying red lights >>>>>>>>>>> for instance. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Is this dangerous? Are there any figures to bear it out? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Are you seriously suggestion it is safe to pass red traffic >>>>>>>>> lights under normal conditions? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The question makes no such suggestion. I am asking you - is it >>>>>>>> dangerous? And please give reasons. Then I will offer my >>>>>>>> opinion. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You don't know why it would be dangerous to not obey red >>>>>>> traffic lights? >>>>>> >>>>>> I can think of cases where it would be safe to not obey red >>>>>> traffic lights. If you can't, then you're pretty dim. >>>>> >>>>> Are we talking everyday normal use of traffic controlled >>>>> junctions? >>>> >>>> Define that a bit better :-) The strict answer is "it depends". >>>> >>>> (coz I'm not Brimstone, I'll not stop there.) >>>> >>>> Red traffic lights don't just happen at traffic controlled >>>> junctions - road works and road crossings are the two other ones I >>>> can think of. So that's one reason why your question isn't >>>> helpful. But here's the main one: >>>> Safety when not obeying them isn't an absolute - just as you say >>>> safe speed isn't the absolute prescribed figure. It depends on the >>>> circumstances - what other vehicles/people are present, how much >>>> can you see, how fast are they going. You're very keen on >>>> observing the hazards and making an appropriate decision when it >>>> comes to speed limits - why not apply this to other laws too? >>>> After all, it's easy to provide cases where it is perfectly safe >>>> to ignore a red traffic light - and indeed, it's even easy to >>>> provide them where it's not only safe, but doesn't even slightly >>>> affect other road users. And that applies no matter what your mode of >>>> transport. Of course, >>>> the fact that it's rather easier when you're small, manoeverable >>>> and have better opportunities for observation could be a reason for >>>> considering some modes rather more than others (and indeed the law >>>> recognises this to an extent). >>> >>> When choosing a speed to travel at, all hazzards, road & weather >>> conditions are taken into account. I am always going to be >>> travelling on the correct side of the road, in a direction other >>> road users and pedestrians expect me to be going. A 10% difference >>> in speed is not going to catch someone out, if the driver has >>> chosen that speed on an accurate assesment of those conditions. >>> >>> A red traffic light is an absolute message to stop. I know this and >>> all other road users are expecting me to comply with it. Other road >>> users will be approaching green traffic lights expecting the road to >>> be clear. Many motorists will not be observing either side of the >>> junction for road users not obeying the red. Therefore, not obeying >>> a red traffic signal, has far more risks associated with it than >>> going a little faster than a posted speed limit - one that has no >>> idea of the conditions when I pass it. >> >> What if there are no other road users? > > What about it? Quote, "I know this and all other road users are expecting me to comply with it. Other road users will be approaching green traffic lights expecting the road to be clear." That's quite true. but what if there are no other road users, why shouldn't one drive/ride through a red light?
From: Peter Clinch on 19 Dec 2007 07:33
Adrian wrote: > Peter Clinch (Peter Clinch <p.j.clinch(a)dundee.ac.uk>) gurgled happily, > sounding much like they were saying: > >> Adrian wrote: >> [bike bell] > > No. > Now read the context that sentence was in. The "same as" makes it ambiguous, actually. Pete. -- Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net p.j.clinch(a)dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/ |