From: Noddy on

"PhilD" <replytonewsgrouponly(a)aussient.com.au> wrote in message
news:ak1Vn.154$vD2.40(a)news-server.bigpond.net.au...

> But they do have an obligation to both maintain the workplace in a safe
> condition and to leave it in that condition as well. Particularly up here
> in the cyclone season there's been quite some concerns over the years
> about the way in which building sites are maintained in clearing up
> rubbish and ensuring that items that are likely to be flying debris are
> kept reasonably safe. With some of the storms that happen down that way
> the same should apply. The trouble with that is that you would also be
> likely to get something like our cyclone building code which would add so
> much to your cost that you would probably vote out any politician who
> tried to introduce it.

Agreed.

> It wouldn't apply in your case as the build price would have been over the
> limit but my situation was that it was under the $10,000 limit for the
> Small Claims Court to be relevant and different rules of evidence and
> trying to exclude expensive lawyers applies. There it would probably be
> easier to argue that they didn't fulfill their obligations.

Most likely.

> I don't accept that their satisfaction over-rides mine, even though they
> may think that.

I probably could have worded that a little better.

They don't have to satisfy themselves but they have to meet the relevant
building code, and as long as they do what your, my or anyone else's
satisfaction level may be is irrelevant.

> My Plumbers and Builders could have tried to claim completion earlier, and
> I was a bit surprised they didn't, but maybe I just bluffed them enough.
> Regardless, any future work from all tradesmen will have notes about
> expectations of cleaning up during and on completion and proper wording on
> payment procedures. If they don't like it they don't get the work. It
> helps to keep all correspondence in a written format and take lots of
> pictures.

It does indeed.

I've got over 400 photo's of the house in it's various stage of construction
so far Not that there's been any need to take them other than for my own
curiosity value, but it's good insurance.

So far there's been no problems.

> My wife carries on a bit when I get grumpy like that or press complaints
> to a better finish but mostly it pays off.

It does.

I'm a firm believer in back scratching, and I've gone out of my way to meet
every tradie working on the house. So far, all of them have been great
blokes and it's quite amazing how much extra you can get out of them for a
slab or beer.

> By the way, did you get to see what they did when doing the roof to
> protect their workmen from falls. If they failed to comply with the
> regulations and you saw it you could threaten them with dobbing them in.
> That has a problem as well because under work safety rules if they were
> working unsafely and you saw it and didn't do something about it, you can
> be liable as well. I was so happy to leave the workforce and get away from
> all that and the endless paperwork.

Fortunately or unfortunately as the case may be, I didn't see how they put
the roof on.

I'm usually up there on Wednesdays and all week-end. They'd started putting
the posts up when I was there last Wednesday week and had the frame up with
one wall sheeted when I got up there the following Saturday morning. They
didn't work that week-end but had finished everything but the access doors
and a couple of windows by the time I got back up there the following
Wednesday so I don't know what they did to get the roof up.

Aside from their own personal tools the only thing they had on site was an
agricultural scissor lift, so I assume they used that. I don't know if
that's kosher as far as worksafe laws go for such jobs, but that's all I saw
them using when they were doing the frame.

--
Regards,
Noddy.



From: PhilD on

"Noddy" <me(a)home.com> wrote in message
news:4c24aa92$0$1208$c30e37c6(a)exi-reader.telstra.net...
>
> "PhilD" <replytonewsgrouponly(a)aussient.com.au> wrote in message
> news:ak1Vn.154$vD2.40(a)news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
>> But they do have an obligation to both maintain the workplace in a safe
>> condition and to leave it in that condition as well. Particularly up here
>> in the cyclone season there's been quite some concerns over the years
>> about the way in which building sites are maintained in clearing up
>> rubbish and ensuring that items that are likely to be flying debris are
>> kept reasonably safe. With some of the storms that happen down that way
>> the same should apply. The trouble with that is that you would also be
>> likely to get something like our cyclone building code which would add so
>> much to your cost that you would probably vote out any politician who
>> tried to introduce it.
>
> Agreed.
>
>> It wouldn't apply in your case as the build price would have been over
>> the limit but my situation was that it was under the $10,000 limit for
>> the Small Claims Court to be relevant and different rules of evidence and
>> trying to exclude expensive lawyers applies. There it would probably be
>> easier to argue that they didn't fulfill their obligations.
>
> Most likely.
>
>> I don't accept that their satisfaction over-rides mine, even though they
>> may think that.
>
> I probably could have worded that a little better.
>
> They don't have to satisfy themselves but they have to meet the relevant
> building code, and as long as they do what your, my or anyone else's
> satisfaction level may be is irrelevant.
>
>> My Plumbers and Builders could have tried to claim completion earlier,
>> and I was a bit surprised they didn't, but maybe I just bluffed them
>> enough. Regardless, any future work from all tradesmen will have notes
>> about expectations of cleaning up during and on completion and proper
>> wording on payment procedures. If they don't like it they don't get the
>> work. It helps to keep all correspondence in a written format and take
>> lots of pictures.
>
> It does indeed.
>
> I've got over 400 photo's of the house in it's various stage of
> construction so far Not that there's been any need to take them other than
> for my own curiosity value, but it's good insurance.
>
Keep the photo's. Some day you'll need them when doing
extensions/renovations/maintenance and it will help with locating
cabling/piping/framing etc.

> So far there's been no problems.
>
>> My wife carries on a bit when I get grumpy like that or press complaints
>> to a better finish but mostly it pays off.
>
> It does.
>
> I'm a firm believer in back scratching, and I've gone out of my way to
> meet every tradie working on the house. So far, all of them have been
> great blokes and it's quite amazing how much extra you can get out of them
> for a slab or beer.
>
>> By the way, did you get to see what they did when doing the roof to
>> protect their workmen from falls. If they failed to comply with the
>> regulations and you saw it you could threaten them with dobbing them in.
>> That has a problem as well because under work safety rules if they were
>> working unsafely and you saw it and didn't do something about it, you can
>> be liable as well. I was so happy to leave the workforce and get away
>> from all that and the endless paperwork.
>
> Fortunately or unfortunately as the case may be, I didn't see how they put
> the roof on.
>
> I'm usually up there on Wednesdays and all week-end. They'd started
> putting the posts up when I was there last Wednesday week and had the
> frame up with one wall sheeted when I got up there the following Saturday
> morning. They didn't work that week-end but had finished everything but
> the access doors and a couple of windows by the time I got back up there
> the following Wednesday so I don't know what they did to get the roof up.
>
> Aside from their own personal tools the only thing they had on site was an
> agricultural scissor lift, so I assume they used that. I don't know if
> that's kosher as far as worksafe laws go for such jobs, but that's all I
> saw them using when they were doing the frame.
>
With the last house (2 story) we had built they had to have scaffolding up
past the eaves on all sides so that no-one could fall off doing the roof.
Two properties away another builder was caught by Work Health and made to
supply scaffolding but no-one came back to ensure it was used and from what
I saw far less than was required was actually assembled and much of it was
just laying on the ground. Others large sheds of your size I've seen had a
wire mesh first spread over the truss work and then some flimsy catch
fencing around the perimeter and workers wearing fall arrest harnesses. Done
properly though it is a significant cost that companies will try to avoid.
The worst I've seen was directly across the park land from us back in the
mid 80's. It was a 2 story development of units with prefab walls. When they
were doing the upper cast floor and later the roof they had a real shortage
of ladders and made their own. A single straight piece of timber with slats
nailed across it. It was made worse by workers only wearing thongs and
stubbies. No shirts, hats, gloves, work boots or sunglasses to be seen.
Amazingly I didn't see anyone fall off of the rickety ladders. The glare
damage to their eyes while doing the roof must have been terrible.
What it comes down to though is that there's a lot of workers out there who
have no respect for their own health and it often shows up in their
workmanship.

PhilD


From: Brad on


"PhilD" <replytonewsgrouponly(a)aussient.com.au> wrote in message
news:Xd3Vn.191$vD2.40(a)news-server.bigpond.net.au...
:
: "Noddy" <me(a)home.com> wrote in message
: news:4c24aa92$0$1208$c30e37c6(a)exi-reader.telstra.net...
: >
: > "PhilD" <replytonewsgrouponly(a)aussient.com.au> wrote in message
: > news:ak1Vn.154$vD2.40(a)news-server.bigpond.net.au...
: >
: >> But they do have an obligation to both maintain the workplace in a safe
: >> condition and to leave it in that condition as well. Particularly up
here
: >> in the cyclone season there's been quite some concerns over the years
: >> about the way in which building sites are maintained in clearing up
: >> rubbish and ensuring that items that are likely to be flying debris are
: >> kept reasonably safe. With some of the storms that happen down that way
: >> the same should apply. The trouble with that is that you would also be
: >> likely to get something like our cyclone building code which would add
so
: >> much to your cost that you would probably vote out any politician who
: >> tried to introduce it.
: >
: > Agreed.
: >
: >> It wouldn't apply in your case as the build price would have been over
: >> the limit but my situation was that it was under the $10,000 limit for
: >> the Small Claims Court to be relevant and different rules of evidence
and
: >> trying to exclude expensive lawyers applies. There it would probably be
: >> easier to argue that they didn't fulfill their obligations.
: >
: > Most likely.
: >
: >> I don't accept that their satisfaction over-rides mine, even though
they
: >> may think that.
: >
: > I probably could have worded that a little better.
: >
: > They don't have to satisfy themselves but they have to meet the
relevant
: > building code, and as long as they do what your, my or anyone else's
: > satisfaction level may be is irrelevant.
: >
: >> My Plumbers and Builders could have tried to claim completion earlier,
: >> and I was a bit surprised they didn't, but maybe I just bluffed them
: >> enough. Regardless, any future work from all tradesmen will have notes
: >> about expectations of cleaning up during and on completion and proper
: >> wording on payment procedures. If they don't like it they don't get the
: >> work. It helps to keep all correspondence in a written format and take
: >> lots of pictures.
: >
: > It does indeed.
: >
: > I've got over 400 photo's of the house in it's various stage of
: > construction so far Not that there's been any need to take them other
than
: > for my own curiosity value, but it's good insurance.
: >
: Keep the photo's. Some day you'll need them when doing
: extensions/renovations/maintenance and it will help with locating
: cabling/piping/framing etc.
:
: > So far there's been no problems.
: >
: >> My wife carries on a bit when I get grumpy like that or press
complaints
: >> to a better finish but mostly it pays off.
: >
: > It does.
: >
: > I'm a firm believer in back scratching, and I've gone out of my way to
: > meet every tradie working on the house. So far, all of them have been
: > great blokes and it's quite amazing how much extra you can get out of
them
: > for a slab or beer.
: >
: >> By the way, did you get to see what they did when doing the roof to
: >> protect their workmen from falls. If they failed to comply with the
: >> regulations and you saw it you could threaten them with dobbing them
in.
: >> That has a problem as well because under work safety rules if they were
: >> working unsafely and you saw it and didn't do something about it, you
can
: >> be liable as well. I was so happy to leave the workforce and get away
: >> from all that and the endless paperwork.
: >
: > Fortunately or unfortunately as the case may be, I didn't see how they
put
: > the roof on.
: >
: > I'm usually up there on Wednesdays and all week-end. They'd started
: > putting the posts up when I was there last Wednesday week and had the
: > frame up with one wall sheeted when I got up there the following
Saturday
: > morning. They didn't work that week-end but had finished everything but
: > the access doors and a couple of windows by the time I got back up there
: > the following Wednesday so I don't know what they did to get the roof
up.
: >
: > Aside from their own personal tools the only thing they had on site was
an
: > agricultural scissor lift, so I assume they used that. I don't know if
: > that's kosher as far as worksafe laws go for such jobs, but that's all I
: > saw them using when they were doing the frame.
: >
: With the last house (2 story) we had built they had to have scaffolding up
: past the eaves on all sides so that no-one could fall off doing the roof.
: Two properties away another builder was caught by Work Health and made to
: supply scaffolding but no-one came back to ensure it was used and from
what
: I saw far less than was required was actually assembled and much of it was
: just laying on the ground. Others large sheds of your size I've seen had a
: wire mesh first spread over the truss work and then some flimsy catch
: fencing around the perimeter and workers wearing fall arrest harnesses.
Done
: properly though it is a significant cost that companies will try to avoid.
: The worst I've seen was directly across the park land from us back in the
: mid 80's. It was a 2 story development of units with prefab walls. When
they
: were doing the upper cast floor and later the roof they had a real
shortage
: of ladders and made their own. A single straight piece of timber with
slats
: nailed across it. It was made worse by workers only wearing thongs and
: stubbies. No shirts, hats, gloves, work boots or sunglasses to be seen.
: Amazingly I didn't see anyone fall off of the rickety ladders. The glare
: damage to their eyes while doing the roof must have been terrible.
: What it comes down to though is that there's a lot of workers out there
who
: have no respect for their own health and it often shows up in their
: workmanship.
:
: PhilD
:
:

The dress code is like that here now (thongs, shorts and a T-Shirt) at least
they don't have to worry about sun burn much. The mines are all up with the
rules but local builders are not.
When quoting for multinational companies the require safety clothing etc..
the builders can be caught because few places actually enforce it. The
tradies are fairly bad and at less than $5 an hour they are paid about
right. A labourer gets less than $1 an hour. K2.20. K1 = AU$0.39

I know you are sick of hearing about the bad roads but I can tell you the
rain here is also something else. Probably the cause of most of the road
woes. 300 inches a year and about 100 of that in the next 2 months, it
started last week. At least we don't seem to get the nasty wind with it and
it's too far north for cyclones here.

To take my mind off the rain (coming from the Rocky area I never thought I'd
have to say that) I've been planing holidays. South in Aug and off to Tufi
in Oct for a weekend. I won the Tufi trip earlier in the year and everyone
that has been has raved about it. Wonder if they have the Black Bass over
that way, only triple tail and blue water fish here.

--
Brad Leyden
6� 43.5816' S 146� 59.3097' E WGS84
To mail spam is really hot but please reply to thread so all may benefit (or
laugh at my mistakes)
>
>


From: PhilD on

"Brad" <bradleyden(a)spammail.com> wrote in message
news:i03ab2$55t$1(a)speranza.aioe.org...
>
>
> "PhilD" <replytonewsgrouponly(a)aussient.com.au> wrote in message
> news:Xd3Vn.191$vD2.40(a)news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> :
> : "Noddy" <me(a)home.com> wrote in message
> : news:4c24aa92$0$1208$c30e37c6(a)exi-reader.telstra.net...
> : >
> : > "PhilD" <replytonewsgrouponly(a)aussient.com.au> wrote in message
> : > news:ak1Vn.154$vD2.40(a)news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> : >
>
> I know you are sick of hearing about the bad roads but I can tell you the
> rain here is also something else. Probably the cause of most of the road
> woes. 300 inches a year and about 100 of that in the next 2 months, it
> started last week. At least we don't seem to get the nasty wind with it
> and
> it's too far north for cyclones here.
>
Our average here in the Darwin area is 60 with almost all from October to
May. 300 you can keep. I'd rather build for cyclones than try to cope with
that.

PhilD


From: Noddy on

"Dan---" <hsvtourer(a)hsv.co.uk.com.au> wrote in message
news:4c254e99$0$28669$c3e8da3(a)news.astraweb.com...

> Jesus! did they think it use to be the ex Mitsy plant in Tonsley? what a
> mess!

I walked through it today at about 5pm just as it was starting to get dark
and it's not really as bad as it looks in the pictures. The mud you can't do
much about as it's everywhere up there but it's the screws all over the
place that pissed me off. I reckon they dropped every third one they tried
to drive in, and just left them laying all over the place.

> Actually you could of built the whole range of Magna's in that shed.

I could have built the entire production run of 380's in my shed I have here
now :)

> Yeah well and truely noted! although as long as it wasn't built by Alfa
> Romeo so it should stand the climate without fall apart. :-)

Lets hope so :)

Must be something about shed companies. The bloke next door is having a
slightly smaller shed built by a different company, and he paid for his shed
in December last year. When I got up there this morning his frame just
started to go up yesterday.

--
Regards,
Noddy.