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From: Michael Coburn on 30 Jul 2010 23:43 On Sat, 31 Jul 2010 02:08:34 +0000, Matthew Russotto wrote: > In article <cvt656hh68l9eit1qkjs573svsjiujsj7o(a)4ax.com>, Dave Head > <rally2xs(a)att.net> wrote: >> >>When poor people pay zero tax, I think you'll have a hard time getting >>them to agree with you that the Fair Tax is not progressive. > > To people who want a "high and graduated income tax", nothing is > sufficiently progressive until everyone has the same amount left after > taxes. LIE@! -- "Senate rules don't trump the Constitution" -- http://GreaterVoice.org/60
From: Dave Head on 31 Jul 2010 04:57 On 31 Jul 2010 03:19:58 GMT, Michael Coburn <mikcob(a)verizon.net> wrote: >Why can't you see the reality in front of you? Same thing I want to say to you. >The American middle class >is already disintegrating Yes. The income tax is sending their good-paying factory jobs overseas, has been for decades (since about the 60's) and will continue to do so in the future, unless repealed. This country will get more and more poor as long as the income tax continues to make American goods uncompetitive. >and the rich get richer every day. The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! I've heard enough about the f'n rich. I don't care if they get twice, 3X, 4X, 10X, 100X as much money as they do now. They don't concern me. All I'm concerned about is whether people in the middlle class can become prosperous. If we get rid of the f'n income tax, they can. And yes, "the rich" will get richer. But so will the middle class. That's the idea of this country - "land of plenty" - everyone does better and better. Well, its not happening now, and will never, ever, ever happen again unless we get rid of the income tax. >Shifting >all taxes onto consumption is _NOT_ going to fix that problem. It absolutely, positively, beyond the shadow of a doubt WILL fix the problem. The problem is: Our products cost too much because the income tax is making them cost too much, and therefore manufacturing is moving out of the country to places where they can make money, such as Mexico and N. Korea and Canada and Ireland and "everyplace but here." But without the income tax, American businesses will be able to build world-competitive products, which means we will not only be buying American TV's and (more) American cars and American etc., but so will the rest of the world. That fact will make the middle class rich, since they will be employed to build those products. When we reach full employment, then the wages will go up, and up, and up as businesses try to compete with each other for people to work in their factories. At that point, to keep the products price-competititive, we can throw open the immigration doors and accept the entire population of Mexico if we want to... 'cuz we'll have jobs for 'em. >And the >rich The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! The rich! I don't want to hear about the f'n rich. I don't know why you hate them so. If they can make 100X the money they have how, fine. But the middle class becoming more prosperous is my concern. I don't know why you are not concerned about that, and only care to get sideways about what the rich are doing. >will continue to live above the law and place people in the >legislature to create the laws that they see fit such that they have even >more power to command the middle class. They're going to have no power to "command" the middle class. The gov't does that. >It isn't a game against other countries seeing who can outproduce who. Yes, it absolutely f'n _is_. The fact that they have what should be our jobs is why the gov't is running out of money - there's not enough people with money left in the country to support the sort of taxes necessary to do what we want and need to do. If we don't do something drastic soon, we will not be taking in enough money to simply pay the interest on the National debt. All our money will go for interest before 1 f'n road gets built, bridge gets maintained, etc. etc. IOW, we're going to go bankrupt. >It is about the prosperity of the middle class and that is _all_ that >matters. That's right, and you won't achieve it if all you're trying to do is take money away from the rich. The task is to get money into the pockets of the middle classs. That is NOT done by creating a gov't give-away program. That is done by providing good job opportunities. And, as long as the income tax is making American business unprofitable, it will chase jobs overseas, there will be no good job opportunites for all the middle class. We need FACTORY jobs... jobs "ordinary" people can do, without getting a Bachelors or Masters degree at college, or ANY college. Train up to be a milwright, pipefitter, electric gang member, tool and diemaker, machinist - anybody can learn those trades, just about, but you have to have FACTORIES to employ people like that, and those are all going overseas. All we get left with is jobs like programmer and lab tech and stuff that requires above-average intelligence. Well, fully half the population has BELOW-average intelligence. They can do factory jobs just fine, but not lab-tech nor programming. As long as we fail to provide factory jobs, our economic slide will continue, and accelerate. Its a really slow process, with each successive recession becoming deeper and lasting longer. 30 years from now, we're going to look like Zimbabwe if we keep it up, and can only thing of ways to punish the rich, and no ways to channel money to the poor.
From: Dave Head on 31 Jul 2010 05:00 On Sat, 31 Jul 2010 04:57:22 -0400, Dave Head <rally2xs(a)att.net> wrote: > Our products cost too much because the >income tax is making them cost too much, and therefore manufacturing >is moving out of the country to places where they can make money, such >as Mexico and N. Korea and Canada and Ireland and "everyplace but >here." I meant S. Korea!
From: Jim Yanik on 31 Jul 2010 09:37 Beam Me Up Scotty <Then-Destroy-Everything(a)Blackhole.NebulaX.com> wrote in news:4C538F61.4010609(a)Blackhole.NebulaX.com: > On 7/30/2010 10:08 PM, Matthew Russotto wrote: >> In article <cvt656hh68l9eit1qkjs573svsjiujsj7o(a)4ax.com>, >> Dave Head <rally2xs(a)att.net> wrote: >>> >>> When poor people pay zero tax, I think you'll have a hard time >>> getting them to agree with you that the Fair Tax is not progressive. >> >> To people who want a "high and graduated income tax", nothing is >> sufficiently progressive until everyone has the same amount left >> after taxes. it's communism;the "state" determines how much you should have,no matter how hard or smart you work. An incentive-killer. (they call it "social justice"....) what's the point of working harder or smarter if the State is going to take all or much of any increase from your extra efforts? didn't we learn this from Welfare? > > > Wouldn't their Alcohol and Tobacco and gas tax all be rolled into the > Sales tax and so there would only be one tax so they might be paying > less tax on cigarettes or alcohol than they did before. > -- Jim Yanik jyanik at localnet dot com
From: Matthew Russotto on 31 Jul 2010 21:59
In article <js2756dr1odehqb34uvjt8rbjdlf04hrh6(a)4ax.com>, Dave Head <rally2xs(a)att.net> wrote: > > >On Sat, 31 Jul 2010 02:08:34 GMT, russotto(a)grace.speakeasy.net >(Matthew Russotto) wrote: > >>In article <cvt656hh68l9eit1qkjs573svsjiujsj7o(a)4ax.com>, >>Dave Head <rally2xs(a)att.net> wrote: >>> >>>When poor people pay zero tax, I think you'll have a hard time getting >>>them to agree with you that the Fair Tax is not progressive. >> >>To people who want a "high and graduated income tax", nothing is >>sufficiently progressive until everyone has the same amount left after taxes. > >Some people's problem is that they're not happy unless the gov't >really sticks it to the wealthy. They're basically communists. Karl Marx put it as "a heavy progressive or graduated income tax". Number 2 in the Communist manifesto, right after abolition of property rights in land. -- The problem with socialism is there's always someone with less ability and more need. |