From: Ian on

"JNugent" <JN(a)noparticularplacetogo.com> wrote in message
news:5IednR2Iu4eEXU3WnZ2dnUVZ8oadnZ2d(a)pipex.net...
> Ian wrote:
>
>> "AlanG" <invalid(a)invalid.net> wrote:
>>> JNugent <JN(a)noparticularplacetogo.com> wrote:
>>>> Ian wrote:
>>>>> "ARWadsworth" <adamwadsworth(a)blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> "Adrian" <toomany2cvs(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Simon Dean <sjdean(a)home.cubeone.co.uk>:
>
>>>>>>>> If that's true, that's quite disgraceful. They could easily
>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> sold on to someone with a really really bad car, or perhaps
>>>>>>>> given to some charities or something, even auctioned off. But
>>>>>>>> stripped and crushed?
>
>>>>>>> That was kinda the whole _point_ of the scrappage scheme...
>
>>>>>> These green ideas eh?
>>>>>> Next there will be subsidies for new boilers and solar
>>>>>> power...........oh dear
>
>>>>> Boiler Scrappage scheme just ended. We got one of the last
>>>>> payouts..
>>>>> �400.
>>>>> Ta.
>
>>>> Still waiting for my �400.
>>>> The new boiler is great.
>
>>> Wait until it breaks down.
>
>>> I've tried to find a report on this I read last year. It
>>> recommended
>>> keeping an older boiler if it was in good condition because newer
>>> boilers, while more efficient, are more likely to break down. Some
>>> have needed complete replacement after as little as 5 years.
>
>> OK keeping the old one until you can't get the parts any more,
>> parts were difficult last time it broke down.
>
> That's what was happening to ours. In cold weather, when the heating
> was on, the system wouldn't supply hot water. Running a bath meant
> turning off the heating. The demand valve (if that's what it was)
> was no longer available as a spare part.
>
Hmmmm..... surely if the boiler is actually heating water adequately,
it should do either DHW or CH or both.... the actual usage of the
heated water is directed by a midpoint 3port valve controlled by the
programmer, nothing to do with the boiler (other than that the valve
turns the boiler on, with the orange wire).

Midpoint valve wiring is usually: Neutral (blue), Earth (green/yellow)
as you would expect.

Orange fires the boiler.

White is live feed from stat or programmer (if no room stat) - it is
live to turn the valve to CH ON

Grey is connected to DHW OFF from the programmer (which should be
live when DHW off), also the DHW "hot enough" (satisfied) terminal of
the cylinder stat (the cylinder stat is a two-way switch).

There is no red/brown "live"

The DHW ON from the programmer is connected to the common terminal of
the cylinder stat

The "demand" ("hot water required") terminal of the cylinder stat is
connected to the boiler AND the orange of the midpoint valve.

Problem arises when your old midpoint valve (like our Switchmaster
VA1, a blue box) has SIX wires..... you need to modify to the current
five wire layout.


when Grey is dead, and White is live, it goes to CH only.
When grey and white are both live, the valve stalls halfway (on DHW
+CH)
Grey live by itself, DHW turns off (!)

Sorry if this is going OT and ought to go to uk.boilers......... but
it might help, and save someone buying a new boiler for a year or two.


>> (our �400 cheque arrived this a.m.)
>
> They insist on paying us direct into the account - some time in the
> next 20 days, I think.


From: JNugent on
Ian wrote:

> "JNugent" <JN(a)noparticularplacetogo.com> wrote:
>> Ian wrote:
>>> "AlanG" <invalid(a)invalid.net> wrote:
>>>> JNugent <JN(a)noparticularplacetogo.com> wrote:
>>>>> Ian wrote:
>>>>>> "ARWadsworth" <adamwadsworth(a)blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> "Adrian" <toomany2cvs(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Simon Dean <sjdean(a)home.cubeone.co.uk>:

>>>>>>>>> If that's true, that's quite disgraceful. They could easily
>>>>>>>>> be sold on to someone with a really really bad car, or perhaps
>>>>>>>>> given to some charities or something, even auctioned off. But
>>>>>>>>> stripped and crushed?

>>>>>>>> That was kinda the whole _point_ of the scrappage scheme...

>>>>>>> These green ideas eh?
>>>>>>> Next there will be subsidies for new boilers and solar
>>>>>>> power...........oh dear

>>>>>> Boiler Scrappage scheme just ended. We got one of the last
>>>>>> payouts.
>>>>>> �400.
>>>>>> Ta.

>>>>> Still waiting for my �400.

>>>>> The new boiler is great.

>>>> Wait until it breaks down.

>>>> I've tried to find a report on this I read last year. It
>>>> recommended keeping an older boiler if it was in good condition
>>>> because newer boilers, while more efficient, are more likely to
>>>> break down. Some have needed complete replacement after as little
>>>> as 5 years.

>>> OK keeping the old one until you can't get the parts any more,
>>> parts were difficult last time it broke down.

>> That's what was happening to ours. In cold weather, when the heating
>> was on, the system wouldn't supply hot water. Running a bath meant
>> turning off the heating. The demand valve (if that's what it was)
>> was no longer available as a spare part.

> Hmmmm..... surely if the boiler is actually heating water adequately,
> it should do either DHW or CH or both.... the actual usage of the
> heated water is directed by a midpoint 3port valve controlled by the
> programmer, nothing to do with the boiler (other than that the valve
> turns the boiler on, with the orange wire).
> Midpoint valve wiring is usually: Neutral (blue), Earth (green/yellow)
> as you would expect.
> Orange fires the boiler.
> White is live feed from stat or programmer (if no room stat) - it is
> live to turn the valve to CH ON
> Grey is connected to DHW OFF from the programmer (which should be
> live when DHW off), also the DHW "hot enough" (satisfied) terminal of
> the cylinder stat (the cylinder stat is a two-way switch).
> There is no red/brown "live"
> The DHW ON from the programmer is connected to the common terminal of
> the cylinder stat
> The "demand" ("hot water required") terminal of the cylinder stat is
> connected to the boiler AND the orange of the midpoint valve.
> Problem arises when your old midpoint valve (like our Switchmaster
> VA1, a blue box) has SIX wires..... you need to modify to the current
> five wire layout.
> when Grey is dead, and White is live, it goes to CH only.
> When grey and white are both live, the valve stalls halfway (on DHW
> +CH)
> Grey live by itself, DHW turns off (!)

> Sorry if this is going OT and ought to go to uk.boilers......... but
> it might help, and save someone buying a new boiler for a year or two.

Thanks for that (as you say, let's hope it can be of assistance to someone),
but I think I can be definite that it wasn't an electrical fault - it was a
mechanical/hydraulic fault.

>>> (our �400 cheque arrived this a.m.)

>> They insist on paying us direct into the account - some time in the
>> next 20 days, I think.


From: Big Les Wade on
Mortimer <me(a)privacy.net> posted
>Now all I need to do is to work out why my boiler consumes control
>circuit boards and needs the board replacing about once a year so it
>will reliably start every morning (when it's been off overnight) rather
>than aborting the lighting sequence and going in an error state that
>requires it to be manually reset (ie it doesn't even retry when the
>boiler next switches on the following day).

Probably the circulator pump is either under-specced, or getting old and
tired, or perhaps there is sludge in the water. If the pump can't push
the water through the boiler fast enough to remove the heat, the boiler
overheats and the main board has to keep cycling the gas valve on and
off. That can wear out the relays (so I am told).

>Bloody Gloworm Micron - the central heating engineer said it's a very
>common problem.

My Potterton Kingfisher had a very similar problem.

--
Les
Criticising the government is not illegal, but often on investigation turns out
to be linked to serious offences.
From: Bod on
Big Les Wade wrote:
> Mortimer <me(a)privacy.net> posted
>> Now all I need to do is to work out why my boiler consumes control
>> circuit boards and needs the board replacing about once a year so it
>> will reliably start every morning (when it's been off overnight)
>> rather than aborting the lighting sequence and going in an error state
>> that requires it to be manually reset (ie it doesn't even retry when
>> the boiler next switches on the following day).
>
> Probably the circulator pump is either under-specced, or getting old and
> tired, or perhaps there is sludge in the water. If the pump can't push
> the water through the boiler fast enough to remove the heat, the boiler
> overheats and the main board has to keep cycling the gas valve on and
> off. That can wear out the relays (so I am told).
>
>> Bloody Gloworm Micron - the central heating engineer said it's a very
>> common problem.
>
> My Potterton Kingfisher had a very similar problem.
>
>

One of the most reliable boilers today, is an 'Ariston'. They are
cheaper than most boilers and are a less complicated design.

No I don't have any allegiance to Ariston.

Bod
From: Mortimer on
"Big Les Wade" <Les(a)nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:GJsP5jD5$$0LFwnd(a)obviously.invalid...
> Mortimer <me(a)privacy.net> posted
>>Now all I need to do is to work out why my boiler consumes control circuit
>>boards and needs the board replacing about once a year so it will reliably
>>start every morning (when it's been off overnight) rather than aborting
>>the lighting sequence and going in an error state that requires it to be
>>manually reset (ie it doesn't even retry when the boiler next switches on
>>the following day).
>
> Probably the circulator pump is either under-specced, or getting old and
> tired, or perhaps there is sludge in the water. If the pump can't push the
> water through the boiler fast enough to remove the heat, the boiler
> overheats and the main board has to keep cycling the gas valve on and off.
> That can wear out the relays (so I am told).

It seems to happen when the boiler has been off for a while and cooled down.
Once it's lit successfully, it turns on and off according to the thermostats
(CH and HW) for the rest of the day.

I wondered whether it was the "burner lit" sensor (is this still a
bimetallic strip?) that sometimes wasn't heating up sufficiently during the
brief periods that the burners were allowed to light before the control
circuit said "no, not lit, try again".

I've asked both the Glow-worm engineer and an independent engineer whether
there's anything in the rest of the system (pump, valves, boiler sensors)
that could be causing it, and they all say "no, it's just the circuit board
that's failed". I'm suspicious that the first time the board failed it
burned out (strong electrical burning smell, scorch marks and melting around
components and pins) and maybe this damaged something else which makes any
boards that are fitted afterwards more prone to failure.

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