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From: Dave Head on 21 Jul 2010 18:25 On Wed, 21 Jul 2010 04:54:37 -0700 (PDT), Larry G <gross.larry(a)gmail.com> wrote: >On Jul 20, 8:26�pm, russo...(a)grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew Russotto) >wrote: >> In article <61bee29a-3f9a-4e45-b006-3ca8d9bf3...(a)i28g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>, >> Larry G �<gross.la...(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> >they have modern appliances guy. In fact, they use tankless water >> >heaters rather than the water heaters that we do that use more than >> >twice as much energy to keep water continuously hot rather that heated >> >when used. >> >> Tankless water heaters are not clearly an energy saving device. >> >> >no "consuming energy" is not a sin but consuming more than most other >> >people in the world >> >> Most people in the world are living at a subsistence level. �I refuse >> to accept guilt because I am not. >> >> >while complaining about the consequences of such >> >prolifigate use and denying the impacts that result is pretty >> >hypocritical. Even if you don't "believe" in GW, do you "believe" in >> >mountain-top removal and mercury contamination of many rivers at such >> >levels that we warn pregnant women and kids not to eat the fish? >> >> What's the matter with mountain-top removal? �Do rocks have rights? >> Mercury is another matter, but just because I object to mercury >> pollution does not mean I have to buy the environmentalist line. >> >> >Is it a "sin" to use way more than you really need? (as opposed to it >> >being a "sin" to use _any_ ? >> >> What I _need_, as in to survive, is very little. �It is no sin to >> exceed that. �I refuse to stop using my computers, dishwasher, water >> heater, refrigerator, automobile, or air conditioner, and I further >> refuse to feel guilty about any of those things. >> >> -- >> The problem with socialism is there's always >> someone with less ability and more need. > >All of the industrialized countries use less than what we do and have >comparable standards of living - if less consumptive AND ...the ALL >live longer. Ha! I came across the fact on the internet, while searching for the French health care system info last year when we decided to socialize (derstroy) our good medical care, that French doctors, on average, make about $55K / yr. Suuuururrrrrreeeee the Europeans live well. I expect maybe about 1 - 2 percent of them. >The Europeans and Japanese do MUCH MORE than "survive". Skeptical. >I do not think it is a "sin" to exceed average per capita usage (for >the industrialized world).. but it clearly refutes the excuse that it >cannot be done. We don't have the same infrastructure, we don't have the same size country, etc. etc. Just because they can do it with X BTUs overall doesn't mean WE can do it with the same BTUs.
From: Matthew Russotto on 21 Jul 2010 22:13 In article <951f0b5f-1d8e-44c9-a57f-142f4053a0fb(a)g35g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>, Larry G <gross.larry(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > >On Jul 20, 8:26=A0pm, russo...(a)grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew Russotto) >wrote: > >All of the industrialized countries use less than what we do and have >comparable standards of living - They have comparable standards of living, but they come up on the short end of the comparison. Reducing energy usage has costs, and reducing it drastically has high costs. The big one is less living space; smaller and fewer cars (with all that implies) probably comes next, though the mere availability of HVAC is likely in there. -- The problem with socialism is there's always someone with less ability and more need.
From: Matthew Russotto on 21 Jul 2010 22:16 In article <00f0071a-c283-4ea4-81aa-df0a217f5636(a)5g2000yqz.googlegroups.com>, Larry G <gross.larry(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > >On Jul 20, 8:28pm, russo...(a)grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew Russotto) >wrote: >> In article <9ac355fd-db8e-406d-a489-d8e4c5763...(a)y11g2000yqm.googlegroups= >.com>, >> Larry G <gross.la...(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> >How much energy should you use? You should use no more than the >> >average amount of industrialized countries average per capita use - >> >about 1/2 what you use now. >> >> Why? What makes that a magic number? >> >> >you should pay for the true cost of Nuke Power - which will include >> >the actual insurance costs associated with that power - as opposed to >> >those costs being subsidized. >> >> Insurance costs aren't true costs at all. Insurance costs are what >> some actuary speculates future costs will be. > >insurance costs are VERY REAL to investors guy. A lot of things are "real to investors" withoug being true costs. Insurance costs are a perfect example, particularly in an industry with a track record so short and small that there's little data for an actuary to go on. -- The problem with socialism is there's always someone with less ability and more need.
From: Matthew Russotto on 21 Jul 2010 22:17 In article <22879a1c-b4c1-4d4e-816b-eaad9492e3e2(a)j8g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>, Larry G <gross.larry(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > >On Jul 20, 9:07=A0pm, Brent <tetraethylleadREMOVET...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: >> On 2010-07-20, Larry G <gross.la...(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> > I'd say that you need an agency like the EPA to make the tradeoffs >> > between what is necessary for society and for business and what is >> > safe enough.. or pollutable enough for society. >> >> No single person or small group can possibly have enough information to >> do that properly even if they were pure of heart and absolutely perfect >> in their thinking. That means even if you can elminate all the problems >> of politics and corruption, have qualified people with no self interest, >> it still wouldn't work, because no small group can manage a society of >> 300 million people without causing all sorts of problems. > >and your alternative? Decentralize decisionmaking. -- The problem with socialism is there's always someone with less ability and more need.
From: Larry G on 22 Jul 2010 07:13
On Jul 21, 6:25 pm, Dave Head <rally...(a)att.net> wrote: > On Wed, 21 Jul 2010 04:54:37 -0700 (PDT), Larry G > > > > > > <gross.la...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >On Jul 20, 8:26 pm, russo...(a)grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew Russotto) > >wrote: > >> In article <61bee29a-3f9a-4e45-b006-3ca8d9bf3...(a)i28g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>, > >> Larry G <gross.la...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > >> >they have modern appliances guy. In fact, they use tankless water > >> >heaters rather than the water heaters that we do that use more than > >> >twice as much energy to keep water continuously hot rather that heated > >> >when used. > > >> Tankless water heaters are not clearly an energy saving device. > > >> >no "consuming energy" is not a sin but consuming more than most other > >> >people in the world > > >> Most people in the world are living at a subsistence level. I refuse > >> to accept guilt because I am not. > > >> >while complaining about the consequences of such > >> >prolifigate use and denying the impacts that result is pretty > >> >hypocritical. Even if you don't "believe" in GW, do you "believe" in > >> >mountain-top removal and mercury contamination of many rivers at such > >> >levels that we warn pregnant women and kids not to eat the fish? > > >> What's the matter with mountain-top removal? Do rocks have rights? > >> Mercury is another matter, but just because I object to mercury > >> pollution does not mean I have to buy the environmentalist line. > > >> >Is it a "sin" to use way more than you really need? (as opposed to it > >> >being a "sin" to use _any_ ? > > >> What I _need_, as in to survive, is very little. It is no sin to > >> exceed that. I refuse to stop using my computers, dishwasher, water > >> heater, refrigerator, automobile, or air conditioner, and I further > >> refuse to feel guilty about any of those things. > > >> -- > >> The problem with socialism is there's always > >> someone with less ability and more need. > > >All of the industrialized countries use less than what we do and have > >comparable standards of living - if less consumptive AND ...the ALL > >live longer. > > Ha! I came across the fact on the internet, while searching for the > French health care system info last year when we decided to socialize > (derstroy) our good medical care, that French doctors, on average, > make about $55K / yr. > > Suuuururrrrrreeeee the Europeans live well. I expect maybe about 1 - > 2 percent of them. > > >The Europeans and Japanese do MUCH MORE than "survive". > > Skeptical. > > >I do not think it is a "sin" to exceed average per capita usage (for > >the industrialized world).. but it clearly refutes the excuse that it > >cannot be done. > > We don't have the same infrastructure, we don't have the same size > country, etc. etc. Just because they can do it with X BTUs overall > doesn't mean WE can do it with the same BTUs. doesn't mean we can't either. the bottom line is that we are 30th in the world on life expectancy so the idea that their energy use contributes to a "subsistence" lifestyle is ... well.. it's foolish. Most folks who live in most modern industrialized countries - live well .. maybe not as "well" as the US but how could is "well" when the US is dead last in life expectancy of industrialized countries? It sure can't be because we suffer in the heat and cold, eh? |