From: Man at B&Q on
On Jun 28, 2:37 pm, "Andy" <A...(a)nojunqmail.com> wrote:
> "Man at B&Q" <manatba...(a)hotmail.com> wrote in messagenews:c686c280-12ac-4227-abff-fe4925646a27(a)y2g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 28, 1:20 pm, The Peeler <peeling...(a)invalid.admin> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 05:14:19 -0700 (PDT), "Man at B&Q"
>
> > <manatba...(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >On Jun 28, 8:40 am, Derek C <del.copel...(a)tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > >> Since you admit to once owning a gas-guzzling 4WD Land Rover Doug, how
> > >> come you don't still 'retain the motorists mind-set' and claim to be
> > >> 'untainted by motoring'?
>
> > >It's like the Homeopaths claims that water has memory of other
> > >molecules.
>
> > >Point out to them that, in that case, every drop of water on the
> > >planet can remember every type of molecule and watch them wriggle.
>
> > That doesn't follow.
>
> Doesn't it?
>
> Of course it doesn't follow.
> For you scenario to happen then every water molecule in the world would only
> retain memory of the molecules it had been in contact with.

If you look at some of the dilutions claimed for Homeopathic remedies
then they have used every water molecule in the world, several times
over.

MBQ



From: Cynic on
On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 05:14:19 -0700 (PDT), "Man at B&Q"
<manatbandq(a)hotmail.com> wrote:

>It's like the Homeopaths claims that water has memory of other
>molecules.
>
>Point out to them that, in that case, every drop of water on the
>planet can remember every type of molecule and watch them wriggle.

Without implying anything to do with other arguments, the concept that
water *could* have some sort of "memory" is by no means absurd.

Lodestone has a "memory" of its original orientation in the ground,
and will point to the opposite orientation if freely suspended. The
dielectric in a leyden jar or capacitor has a "memory" of the electric
charge it was subjected to. Neither of those things are discernable
by chemical analysis, even at the molecular level.

Water *could* conceivably have a similar memory of certain substances
it was exposed to since the last time it was in a vapour phase, just
as soft iron has a memory of the last magnetic field it was subjected
to during the last time it was heated or subjected to physical shocks.

Not that I am at all convinced by the evidence that homeopathy works
(though the evidence that equally inexplicable acupuncture works *is*
convincing to me).

--
Cynic

From: Ste on
On 28 June, 18:53, Cynic <cynic_...(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 05:14:19 -0700 (PDT), "Man at B&Q"
>
> <manatba...(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
> >It's like the Homeopaths claims that water has memory of other
> >molecules.
>
> >Point out to them that, in that case, every drop of water on the
> >planet can remember every type of molecule and watch them wriggle.
>
> Without implying anything to do with other arguments, the concept that
> water *could* have some sort of "memory" is by no means absurd.
>
> Lodestone has a "memory" of its original orientation in the ground,
> and will point to the opposite orientation if freely suspended.  The
> dielectric in a leyden jar or capacitor has a "memory" of the electric
> charge it was subjected to.  Neither of those things are discernable
> by chemical analysis, even at the molecular level.
>
> Water *could* conceivably have a similar memory of certain substances
> it was exposed to since the last time it was in a vapour phase, just
> as soft iron has a memory of the last magnetic field it was subjected
> to during the last time it was heated or subjected to physical shocks.
>
> Not that I am at all convinced by the evidence that homeopathy works
> (though the evidence that equally inexplicable acupuncture works *is*
> convincing to me).

The basic principle behind acupuncture, that jabbing the skin with
needles can relieve pain, is not a theoretically incredible claim. But
the argument that water has a "memory", and that moreover this
"memory" has a beneficial effect on human health, and thirdly that the
beneficial effect increases in proportion to apparent dilution of the
active substance, is an extremely fanciful argument.
From: Man at B&Q on
On Jun 28, 6:53 pm, Cynic <cynic_...(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 05:14:19 -0700 (PDT), "Man at B&Q"
>
> <manatba...(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
> >It's like the Homeopaths claims that water has memory of other
> >molecules.
>
> >Point out to them that, in that case, every drop of water on the
> >planet can remember every type of molecule and watch them wriggle.
>
> Without implying anything to do with other arguments, the concept that
> water *could* have some sort of "memory" is by no means absurd.
>
> Lodestone has a "memory" of its original orientation in the ground,
> and will point to the opposite orientation if freely suspended.  The
> dielectric in a leyden jar or capacitor has a "memory" of the electric
> charge it was subjected to.  Neither of those things are discernable
> by chemical analysis, even at the molecular level.
>
> Water *could* conceivably have a similar memory of certain substances
> it was exposed to since the last time it was in a vapour phase, just
> as soft iron has a memory of the last magnetic field it was subjected
> to during the last time it was heated or subjected to physical shocks.
>
> Not that I am at all convinced by the evidence that homeopathy works
> (though the evidence that equally inexplicable acupuncture works *is*
> convincing to me).
>
> --
> Cynic

Placebo!

From: boltar2003 on
On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 18:53:04 +0100
Cynic <cynic_999(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 05:14:19 -0700 (PDT), "Man at B&Q"
><manatbandq(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>It's like the Homeopaths claims that water has memory of other
>>molecules.
>>
>>Point out to them that, in that case, every drop of water on the
>>planet can remember every type of molecule and watch them wriggle.
>
>Without implying anything to do with other arguments, the concept that
>water *could* have some sort of "memory" is by no means absurd.

Yes it is. There is no where in a water molecule to store any form of memory
and water can't act in aggregate to store a memory because the molecules
arn't fixed in place in relation to each other unlike...

>Lodestone has a "memory" of its original orientation in the ground,

And melt that lodestone so it becomes a liquid then see what happens.

>Water *could* conceivably have a similar memory of certain substances
>it was exposed to since the last time it was in a vapour phase, just

No it couldn't. Ice might be able to in some form however.

>Not that I am at all convinced by the evidence that homeopathy works

There is no evidence. Every single time a double blind trial has been done
the results are negative. Its all the placebo effect.

>(though the evidence that equally inexplicable acupuncture works *is*
>convincing to me).

Acupuncture could in theory stimulate some nerves which then in some manner
cause the release of some active chemicals or hormones but I suspect its
effect is minor. If all these alternative medicines which supposedly have
many thousands of years of history behind them worked so well then why do
all countries including china turn to western scientific medicine when
things get really bad? If Fleming and Pasteur had though "ah sod this
antibiotics and vaccine nonsense, just stick a needle in them and hope for the
best" then I know for a fact I wouldn't be here right now and neither would
probably half the worlds population.

B2003