From: Man at B&Q on 28 Jun 2010 09:38 On Jun 28, 2:37 pm, "Andy" <A...(a)nojunqmail.com> wrote: > "Man at B&Q" <manatba...(a)hotmail.com> wrote in messagenews:c686c280-12ac-4227-abff-fe4925646a27(a)y2g2000pra.googlegroups.com... > On Jun 28, 1:20 pm, The Peeler <peeling...(a)invalid.admin> wrote: > > > > > On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 05:14:19 -0700 (PDT), "Man at B&Q" > > > <manatba...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > > >On Jun 28, 8:40 am, Derek C <del.copel...(a)tiscali.co.uk> wrote: > > > >> Since you admit to once owning a gas-guzzling 4WD Land Rover Doug, how > > >> come you don't still 'retain the motorists mind-set' and claim to be > > >> 'untainted by motoring'? > > > >It's like the Homeopaths claims that water has memory of other > > >molecules. > > > >Point out to them that, in that case, every drop of water on the > > >planet can remember every type of molecule and watch them wriggle. > > > That doesn't follow. > > Doesn't it? > > Of course it doesn't follow. > For you scenario to happen then every water molecule in the world would only > retain memory of the molecules it had been in contact with. If you look at some of the dilutions claimed for Homeopathic remedies then they have used every water molecule in the world, several times over. MBQ
From: Cynic on 28 Jun 2010 13:53 On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 05:14:19 -0700 (PDT), "Man at B&Q" <manatbandq(a)hotmail.com> wrote: >It's like the Homeopaths claims that water has memory of other >molecules. > >Point out to them that, in that case, every drop of water on the >planet can remember every type of molecule and watch them wriggle. Without implying anything to do with other arguments, the concept that water *could* have some sort of "memory" is by no means absurd. Lodestone has a "memory" of its original orientation in the ground, and will point to the opposite orientation if freely suspended. The dielectric in a leyden jar or capacitor has a "memory" of the electric charge it was subjected to. Neither of those things are discernable by chemical analysis, even at the molecular level. Water *could* conceivably have a similar memory of certain substances it was exposed to since the last time it was in a vapour phase, just as soft iron has a memory of the last magnetic field it was subjected to during the last time it was heated or subjected to physical shocks. Not that I am at all convinced by the evidence that homeopathy works (though the evidence that equally inexplicable acupuncture works *is* convincing to me). -- Cynic
From: Ste on 28 Jun 2010 21:30 On 28 June, 18:53, Cynic <cynic_...(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 05:14:19 -0700 (PDT), "Man at B&Q" > > <manatba...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > >It's like the Homeopaths claims that water has memory of other > >molecules. > > >Point out to them that, in that case, every drop of water on the > >planet can remember every type of molecule and watch them wriggle. > > Without implying anything to do with other arguments, the concept that > water *could* have some sort of "memory" is by no means absurd. > > Lodestone has a "memory" of its original orientation in the ground, > and will point to the opposite orientation if freely suspended. The > dielectric in a leyden jar or capacitor has a "memory" of the electric > charge it was subjected to. Neither of those things are discernable > by chemical analysis, even at the molecular level. > > Water *could* conceivably have a similar memory of certain substances > it was exposed to since the last time it was in a vapour phase, just > as soft iron has a memory of the last magnetic field it was subjected > to during the last time it was heated or subjected to physical shocks. > > Not that I am at all convinced by the evidence that homeopathy works > (though the evidence that equally inexplicable acupuncture works *is* > convincing to me). The basic principle behind acupuncture, that jabbing the skin with needles can relieve pain, is not a theoretically incredible claim. But the argument that water has a "memory", and that moreover this "memory" has a beneficial effect on human health, and thirdly that the beneficial effect increases in proportion to apparent dilution of the active substance, is an extremely fanciful argument.
From: Man at B&Q on 29 Jun 2010 05:37 On Jun 28, 6:53 pm, Cynic <cynic_...(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 05:14:19 -0700 (PDT), "Man at B&Q" > > <manatba...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > >It's like the Homeopaths claims that water has memory of other > >molecules. > > >Point out to them that, in that case, every drop of water on the > >planet can remember every type of molecule and watch them wriggle. > > Without implying anything to do with other arguments, the concept that > water *could* have some sort of "memory" is by no means absurd. > > Lodestone has a "memory" of its original orientation in the ground, > and will point to the opposite orientation if freely suspended. The > dielectric in a leyden jar or capacitor has a "memory" of the electric > charge it was subjected to. Neither of those things are discernable > by chemical analysis, even at the molecular level. > > Water *could* conceivably have a similar memory of certain substances > it was exposed to since the last time it was in a vapour phase, just > as soft iron has a memory of the last magnetic field it was subjected > to during the last time it was heated or subjected to physical shocks. > > Not that I am at all convinced by the evidence that homeopathy works > (though the evidence that equally inexplicable acupuncture works *is* > convincing to me). > > -- > Cynic Placebo!
From: boltar2003 on 29 Jun 2010 06:01
On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 18:53:04 +0100 Cynic <cynic_999(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote: >On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 05:14:19 -0700 (PDT), "Man at B&Q" ><manatbandq(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > >>It's like the Homeopaths claims that water has memory of other >>molecules. >> >>Point out to them that, in that case, every drop of water on the >>planet can remember every type of molecule and watch them wriggle. > >Without implying anything to do with other arguments, the concept that >water *could* have some sort of "memory" is by no means absurd. Yes it is. There is no where in a water molecule to store any form of memory and water can't act in aggregate to store a memory because the molecules arn't fixed in place in relation to each other unlike... >Lodestone has a "memory" of its original orientation in the ground, And melt that lodestone so it becomes a liquid then see what happens. >Water *could* conceivably have a similar memory of certain substances >it was exposed to since the last time it was in a vapour phase, just No it couldn't. Ice might be able to in some form however. >Not that I am at all convinced by the evidence that homeopathy works There is no evidence. Every single time a double blind trial has been done the results are negative. Its all the placebo effect. >(though the evidence that equally inexplicable acupuncture works *is* >convincing to me). Acupuncture could in theory stimulate some nerves which then in some manner cause the release of some active chemicals or hormones but I suspect its effect is minor. If all these alternative medicines which supposedly have many thousands of years of history behind them worked so well then why do all countries including china turn to western scientific medicine when things get really bad? If Fleming and Pasteur had though "ah sod this antibiotics and vaccine nonsense, just stick a needle in them and hope for the best" then I know for a fact I wouldn't be here right now and neither would probably half the worlds population. B2003 |