The motorists here tried to censor me again.
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From: Cynic on 29 Jun 2010 11:53 On Tue, 29 Jun 2010 10:01:49 +0000 (UTC), boltar2003(a)boltar.world wrote: >>Without implying anything to do with other arguments, the concept that >>water *could* have some sort of "memory" is by no means absurd. >Yes it is. There is no where in a water molecule to store any form of memory >and water can't act in aggregate to store a memory because the molecules >arn't fixed in place in relation to each other unlike... >>Lodestone has a "memory" of its original orientation in the ground, >And melt that lodestone so it becomes a liquid then see what happens. I wish I was as certain as you are that we know everything there is to know about the Universe. I was not implying that the "memory" works in *exactly* the same way as permanent magnetism, but that there is a mechanism at work that is as unknown, unlikely and inexplicable to us as magnetism was in past times. >>Water *could* conceivably have a similar memory of certain substances >>it was exposed to since the last time it was in a vapour phase, just >No it couldn't. Ice might be able to in some form however. I'll let you swim in the pure water that was used to cool the fuel rods in a nuclear power station and see whether you still agree that it is impossible for water to take on the characteristics of substances it has been in contact with. >>Not that I am at all convinced by the evidence that homeopathy works >There is no evidence. Every single time a double blind trial has been done >the results are negative. Its all the placebo effect. It appears that you are unaware of what the word "evidence" means. It does not mean the same thing as "proof". The fact that many people claim to have been cured by homeopathic remedies *is* evidence. As is verbal testimony from a person who says they saw fairies at the bottom of their garden. It is just that, as you say, the evidence that exists does not stand up to scrutiny and so is unconvincing. >>(though the evidence that equally inexplicable acupuncture works *is* >>convincing to me). >Acupuncture could in theory stimulate some nerves which then in some manner >cause the release of some active chemicals or hormones but I suspect its >effect is minor. There is significant evidence to suggest that it is not *that* minor. > If all these alternative medicines which supposedly have >many thousands of years of history behind them worked so well then why do >all countries including china turn to western scientific medicine when >things get really bad? Perhaps because the effects are more reproducible, quantifiable and explainable. On a more cynical note, they are also more profitable. -- Cynic
From: Cynic on 29 Jun 2010 13:42 On Tue, 29 Jun 2010 16:23:04 +0000 (UTC), boltar2003(a)boltar.world wrote: >>It appears that you are unaware of what the word "evidence" means. It >>does not mean the same thing as "proof". The fact that many people >>claim to have been cured by homeopathic remedies *is* evidence. As is > >No it isn't. Its just heresay. You also appear not to understand that term either. The people who claim to be cured are giving evidence (first-hand experience). Heresay evidence would be a person saying that he heard another person saying that they were cured. > *Seeing* them getting better while taking >the potion would be potential evidence. Claims mean nothing. Its easy to just >say something. Yes, which is why they are only evidence and not proof. -- Cynic
From: Man at B&Q on 30 Jun 2010 07:39 On Jun 29, 4:53 pm, Cynic <cynic_...(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > On Tue, 29 Jun 2010 10:01:49 +0000 (UTC), boltar2...(a)boltar.world > wrote: > > >>Without implying anything to do with other arguments, the concept that > >>water *could* have some sort of "memory" is by no means absurd. > >Yes it is. There is no where in a water molecule to store any form of memory > >and water can't act in aggregate to store a memory because the molecules > >arn't fixed in place in relation to each other unlike... > >>Lodestone has a "memory" of its original orientation in the ground, > >And melt that lodestone so it becomes a liquid then see what happens. > > I wish I was as certain as you are that we know everything there is to > know about the Universe. I was not implying that the "memory" works > in *exactly* the same way as permanent magnetism, but that there is a > mechanism at work that is as unknown, unlikely and inexplicable to us > as magnetism was in past times. It's no more or less unknown, unlikely or inexplicable than any other form of Snake Oil. The point about Homeopathy is the way this "memory" is claimed to persist after dilution by many orders of magnitude. If that were the case then every molecule of water on the planet would by now have memory of everything it ever came into contact with. The "remedy" would have memory of many, many compounds, some of which can be presumed to be dangerous. Then there's the ritual way the dilution has to be done. I'll say no more about that. Then the people who took massive overdoses of homeopathic "remedies" and found that nothing happened. I'll wager no one has *ever* been cured by a Homeopathic remedy. People *have* been cured by the mystique and ritual surrounding the process of administering the remedy, as has been shown by various double blind tests using sugar pills. The colour if the pill and the attitude of the "doctor" are both very significant. That's a far more interesting avenue of research. MBQ
From: boltar2003 on 30 Jun 2010 07:56 On Tue, 29 Jun 2010 18:42:32 +0100 Cynic <cynic_999(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote: >On Tue, 29 Jun 2010 16:23:04 +0000 (UTC), boltar2003(a)boltar.world >wrote: > >>>It appears that you are unaware of what the word "evidence" means. It >>>does not mean the same thing as "proof". The fact that many people >>>claim to have been cured by homeopathic remedies *is* evidence. As is >> >>No it isn't. Its just heresay. > >You also appear not to understand that term either. The people who >claim to be cured are giving evidence (first-hand experience). >Heresay evidence would be a person saying that he heard another person >saying that they were cured. You don't appear to understand the term "evidence". Someone saying they were "cured" by homeopathy is as much evidence for its effectiveness as some drunken old bat from arkansas saying she was abducted by aliens is evidence for extraterrestrial life. Just because the law misuses the term by making people "give evidence" in court doesn't mean that science does the same. >> *Seeing* them getting better while taking >>the potion would be potential evidence. Claims mean nothing. Its easy to just >>say something. > >Yes, which is why they are only evidence and not proof. They're not even evidence. B2003
From: Cynic on 30 Jun 2010 12:57
On Wed, 30 Jun 2010 04:39:04 -0700 (PDT), "Man at B&Q" <manatbandq(a)hotmail.com> wrote: >The point about Homeopathy is the way this "memory" is claimed to >persist after dilution by many orders of magnitude. If that were the >case then every molecule of water on the planet would by now have >memory of everything it ever came into contact with. The "remedy" >would have memory of many, many compounds, some of which can be >presumed to be dangerous. Without implying that I believe (or disbelieve) that any such "memory" exists, if it *did* exist, what you have stated does not follow. It might be that some event such as an evaporation/condensation cycle resets the memory, and so water only retains the memory of what it has been in contact with since its last vapour phase. Distilled water would thus be a clean slate. The idea may be implausible, but it is by no means impossible. The idea that invisible energy exuded from a very low power source can be detected in thin air on the opposite side of the planet was also a pretty implausible idea. I'm pretty certain that before we knew about radio waves you would have been just as scathing about that claim. Water has some very interesting and unique molecular properties, some of which were only discovered relatively recently. It would be arrogant to assume that we have definitely discovered all there is to know about it. -- Cynic |