This drivers strike ?
in [UK Drivers]
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From: Mike G on 23 Jun 2008 13:34 "Raymond Keattch" <ray.keattch(a)nowhere.com> wrote in message news:rTP7k.83508$Ek2.18023(a)newsfe17.ams2... > On 23/06/2008 04:59:48, "Mike G" wrote: >> >> "Clive George" <clive(a)xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message >> news:xsidnfS-S8kDa8PVnZ2dnUVZ8svinZ2d(a)posted.plusnet... >>> "Mike G" <metier(a)largefoot.com> wrote in message >>> news:lsSdnbDO_dE3bMPVnZ2dnUVZ8sTinZ2d(a)posted.plusnet... >>> >>>> I think the point Vince is making, and I'm certainly making, >>>> is that most office work can be done after maybe a brief >>>> familiarisation period of a few hours. >>>> Nothing like the training required for most skilled manual >>>> workers, and IME most skilled manual workers are perfectly >>>> capable of doing paperwork. They just prefer manual work. >>> >>> Hmm. We're talking low-end clerical stuff here aren't we. >>> There's rather a lot more that goes on in offices beyond >>> that... >>> >>> (for an equivalent to your skilled manual worker, try getting >>> a >>> decent CAD technician - they work in offices, but I'd hope >>> you >>> don't believe they just take a few hours familiarisation.). >> >> I agree, but such skilled office workers are the exception >> rather >> than the rule. Most office work 'is' low-end clerical stuff, >> requiring no particular, or difficult to learn skills. >> Mike. > > By that criteria, most manual work is also unskilled. IIRC the comparison was being made between skilled manual work and office work. Suggesting that office work was equally as skilled as skilled manual work. As it stands, that is untrue, but I would be the first to accept that 'some' office jobs can be equally as skilled as that of many skilled manual jobs. Mike.
From: Raymond Keattch on 23 Jun 2008 18:32 On 23/06/2008 18:34:16, "Mike G" wrote: > > "Raymond Keattch" <ray.keattch(a)nowhere.com> wrote in message > news:rTP7k.83508$Ek2.18023(a)newsfe17.ams2... >> On 23/06/2008 04:59:48, "Mike G" wrote: >>> >>> "Clive George" <clive(a)xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message >>> news:xsidnfS-S8kDa8PVnZ2dnUVZ8svinZ2d(a)posted.plusnet... >>>> "Mike G" <metier(a)largefoot.com> wrote in message >>>> news:lsSdnbDO_dE3bMPVnZ2dnUVZ8sTinZ2d(a)posted.plusnet... >>>> >>>>> I think the point Vince is making, and I'm certainly making, >>>>> is that most office work can be done after maybe a brief >>>>> familiarisation period of a few hours. >>>>> Nothing like the training required for most skilled manual >>>>> workers, and IME most skilled manual workers are perfectly >>>>> capable of doing paperwork. They just prefer manual work. >>>> >>>> Hmm. We're talking low-end clerical stuff here aren't we. >>>> There's rather a lot more that goes on in offices beyond >>>> that... >>>> >>>> (for an equivalent to your skilled manual worker, try getting >>>> a >>>> decent CAD technician - they work in offices, but I'd hope >>>> you >>>> don't believe they just take a few hours familiarisation.). >>> >>> I agree, but such skilled office workers are the exception >>> rather >>> than the rule. Most office work 'is' low-end clerical stuff, >>> requiring no particular, or difficult to learn skills. >>> Mike. >> >> By that criteria, most manual work is also unskilled. > > IIRC the comparison was being made between skilled manual work > and office work. Suggesting that office work was equally as > skilled as skilled manual work. > As it stands, that is untrue, but I would be the first to accept > that 'some' office jobs can be equally as skilled as that of many > skilled manual jobs. Well, I don't agree. I will compare with the 22 people that worked in our head office (300 plus workers in the field) 2 In IT 6 in accounts CEO 6 managers looking after all other departments There are 15 jobs your skilled manual worker couldn't hope to do without lengthy training. Out of the remaining 7 posts, I would say 4 could be done after a few days training and 3 after a day. In my current job, I work in a signal control room with 10 others - it takes a year minimum before you could work there. In my first office job in IT, there were 5 people, only one of whos duties could be carried out with little training. -- MrBitsy Rover 75 CDTi
From: Mike G on 23 Jun 2008 22:54
"Raymond Keattch" <ray.keattch(a)nowhere.com> wrote in message news:qwV7k.45261$zs1.32734(a)newsfe28.ams2... > On 23/06/2008 18:34:16, "Mike G" wrote: >> >> "Raymond Keattch" <ray.keattch(a)nowhere.com> wrote in message >> news:rTP7k.83508$Ek2.18023(a)newsfe17.ams2... >>> On 23/06/2008 04:59:48, "Mike G" wrote: >>>> >>>> "Clive George" <clive(a)xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message >>>> news:xsidnfS-S8kDa8PVnZ2dnUVZ8svinZ2d(a)posted.plusnet... >>>>> "Mike G" <metier(a)largefoot.com> wrote in message >>>>> news:lsSdnbDO_dE3bMPVnZ2dnUVZ8sTinZ2d(a)posted.plusnet... >>>>> >>>>>> I think the point Vince is making, and I'm certainly >>>>>> making, >>>>>> is that most office work can be done after maybe a brief >>>>>> familiarisation period of a few hours. >>>>>> Nothing like the training required for most skilled manual >>>>>> workers, and IME most skilled manual workers are perfectly >>>>>> capable of doing paperwork. They just prefer manual work. >>>>> >>>>> Hmm. We're talking low-end clerical stuff here aren't we. >>>>> There's rather a lot more that goes on in offices beyond >>>>> that... >>>>> >>>>> (for an equivalent to your skilled manual worker, try >>>>> getting >>>>> a >>>>> decent CAD technician - they work in offices, but I'd hope >>>>> you >>>>> don't believe they just take a few hours familiarisation.). >>>> >>>> I agree, but such skilled office workers are the exception >>>> rather >>>> than the rule. Most office work 'is' low-end clerical stuff, >>>> requiring no particular, or difficult to learn skills. >>>> Mike. >>> >>> By that criteria, most manual work is also unskilled. >> >> IIRC the comparison was being made between skilled manual work >> and office work. Suggesting that office work was equally as >> skilled as skilled manual work. >> As it stands, that is untrue, but I would be the first to >> accept >> that 'some' office jobs can be equally as skilled as that of >> many >> skilled manual jobs. > > Well, I don't agree. I will compare with the 22 people that > worked in our > head office (300 plus workers in the field) > > 2 In IT I'll give you that one. > 6 in accounts I wouldn't call that job particularly skilled. Accounting systems etc. > CEO > 6 managers looking after all other departments. Done both the above. As a manager in a toolmaking Co, and later as the owner of one. Skilled, but more people skills, and commonsense required, than the sheer volume of knowledge needed to be a good practical engineer, which takes years to learn. The skills and knowledge needed to do a job like say Dave Baker's, or mine come to that, comes from years of hands-on experience, it can't really be taught. In contrast I found the office work required as a manager, and later with my own business easy by comparison. Certainly not difficult to learn. > There are 15 jobs your skilled manual worker couldn't hope to > do without > lengthy training. I think you under estimate the intelligence of many skilled manual workers. Sure there are many who may know little more than their job, but others would have few problems using that intelligence to quickly learn how to do all but very specialist office jobs. Out of the remaining 7 posts, I would say 4 could be done > after a few days training and 3 after a day. > > In my current job, I work in a signal control room with 10 > others - it takes > a year minimum before you could work there. In my first office > job in IT, > there were 5 people, only one of whos duties could be carried > out with little > training. So I take it that you believe it would take you a similar time to become conversant with most office jobs? Mike. |