Toyota Throttle Electronics Easily Confused
in [Technical]
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From: jim beam on 27 Feb 2010 14:04 On 02/27/2010 10:33 AM, Bob Cooper wrote: > In article<dbadnQQMhN-Y2xTWnZ2dnUVZ_i2dnZ2d(a)speakeasy.net>, > me(a)privacy.net says... >> >> On 02/27/2010 08:02 AM, MLD wrote: >>> >>> Case-in-point---Two ECUs interconnected sending signals back and>>> > forth >>> to each other. During operation they happened to be in different >>> temperature environments. The flux residue on some solder joints >>> actually created a millivolt signal as a result of the difference in >>> their ambient temperatures. The mv signal was treated as a error signal >>> that effected the behavior of the system. >> >> then they should have been signaling digitally, not using analog. >> millivolt differences are not digital signal thresholds. >> > Total nonsense, said merely to say something. er, are you disputing the physical fundamentals, or are you just trying to prove that you don't understand what's being said? >> >>> I think that we both agree that something is going on that can't be >>> explained away by pointing to a stuck accelerator pedal and I don't >>> think that it is a mechanical issue. >>> MLD >> > MLD, though you have made some valid technical points, your judgement is > lacking in evaluating personalities. > You're are talking to a madman, and he won't agree with you. yeah, i'm completely insane - i just won't shut up when idiots keep being ignorant in public or can't pay attention to the facts. > >> no, we don't agree on that because i don't accept the presumption that >> "something is going on". the facts we have are very clear, despite all >> the hyteria, bullshit and astroturf: >> >> 1. there have been only two cars involved in fatalities. and in both >> cases, there is nothing to suggest there was a simultaneous failure of >> the vehicle's brakes, ignition switch or transmission selector that >> would have allowed the drivers to safely bring these vehicles to a halt. >> > There are many more than 2 Toyotas reported to have "unintentionally > accelerated." there are two involving fatalities. and zero distinguishable from driver error. > >> 2. we have a whitehouse getting directly involved in what should be an >> agency's job after the debacle called "cash for clunkers" backfired. >> > This might help. Maintenance advice. > http://www.ehow.com/how_2352403_clean-tin.html > "Clean your tin hat with plain dish washing soap and a soft cloth. If > your tin gets dirty you can clean it with a little dish soap and a soft > cloth. Be sure to remove all of the soap and water with a dry cloth so > your tin will not rust." why do you even have that bookmarked? is everyone that posts something you can't understand or simply don't like automatically a tinfoil head? > >> this is a political systems failure dude, not electronics systems. > > Dittohead. that more than one person can call a spade a spade makes them dittoheads? dude, you need a clue. -- nomina rutrum rutrum
From: Hachiroku ハチロク on 27 Feb 2010 14:39 On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 12:33:59 -0600, Bob Cooper wrote: > >> this is a political systems failure dude, not electronics systems. > > Dittohead. Boob. There. I corrected your name for you.
From: Bob Cooper on 27 Feb 2010 15:32 In article <YrydncJbU5cw8RTWnZ2dnUVZ_oKdnZ2d(a)speakeasy.net>, me(a)privacy.net says... > > On 02/27/2010 10:33 AM, Bob Cooper wrote: > > In article<dbadnQQMhN-Y2xTWnZ2dnUVZ_i2dnZ2d(a)speakeasy.net>, > > me(a)privacy.net says... > >> > >> On 02/27/2010 08:02 AM, MLD wrote: > >>> > >>> Case-in-point---Two ECUs interconnected sending signals back and>>> > > forth > >>> to each other. During operation they happened to be in different > >>> temperature environments. The flux residue on some solder joints > >>> actually created a millivolt signal as a result of the difference in > >>> their ambient temperatures. The mv signal was treated as a error signal > >>> that effected the behavior of the system. > >> > >> then they should have been signaling digitally, not using analog. > >> millivolt differences are not digital signal thresholds. > >> > > Total nonsense, said merely to say something. > > er, are you disputing the physical fundamentals, or are you just trying > to prove that you don't understand what's being said? > I understand enough of what he said not to spout off about signaling and thresholds when he didn't specify any comm protocols, ECU inputs/outputs, ADC, DAC, or thresholds at all. But you have all the answers to dispute him, even if you have to make them up. I note you didn't ask him for the tech details. Easier to just go with your facile assumption that electronic glitches are impossible in a Toyota, spout some BS, and say he's all wrong. I don't believe that such glitches are impossible, so you can call me insane. > > >> > >>> I think that we both agree that something is going on that can't be > >>> explained away by pointing to a stuck accelerator pedal and I don't > >>> think that it is a mechanical issue. > >>> MLD > >> > > MLD, though you have made some valid technical points, your judgement is > > lacking in evaluating personalities. > > You're are talking to a madman, and he won't agree with you. > > yeah, i'm completely insane - i just won't shut up when idiots keep > being ignorant in public or can't pay attention to the facts. > Anybody who believes all who don't agree with him are insane - is insane.
From: MLD on 27 Feb 2010 15:52 "Bob Cooper" <bc(a)nowhere.com> wrote in message news:MPG.25f321919a2c9fc6989680(a)news.eternal-september.org... > In article <dbadnQQMhN-Y2xTWnZ2dnUVZ_i2dnZ2d(a)speakeasy.net>, > me(a)privacy.net says... >> >> On 02/27/2010 08:02 AM, MLD wrote: >> > >> > Case-in-point---Two ECUs interconnected sending signals back and >>> > forth >> > to each other. During operation they happened to be in different >> > temperature environments. The flux residue on some solder joints >> > actually created a millivolt signal as a result of the difference in >> > their ambient temperatures. The mv signal was treated as a error signal >> > that effected the behavior of the system. >> >> then they should have been signaling digitally, not using analog. >> millivolt differences are not digital signal thresholds. >> > Total nonsense, said merely to say something. >> >> > I think that we both agree that something is going on that can't be >> > explained away by pointing to a stuck accelerator pedal and I don't >> > think that it is a mechanical issue. >> > MLD >> > MLD, though you have made some valid technical points, your judgement is > lacking in evaluating personalities. > You're are talking to a madman, and he won't agree with you. > >> no, we don't agree on that because i don't accept the presumption that >> "something is going on". the facts we have are very clear, despite all >> the hyteria, bullshit and astroturf: >> >> 1. there have been only two cars involved in fatalities. and in both >> cases, there is nothing to suggest there was a simultaneous failure of >> the vehicle's brakes, ignition switch or transmission selector that >> would have allowed the drivers to safely bring these vehicles to a halt. >> > There are many more than 2 Toyotas reported to have "unintentionally > accelerated." > >> 2. we have a whitehouse getting directly involved in what should be an >> agency's job after the debacle called "cash for clunkers" backfired. >> > This might help. Maintenance advice. > http://www.ehow.com/how_2352403_clean-tin.html > "Clean your tin hat with plain dish washing soap and a soft cloth. If > your tin gets dirty you can clean it with a little dish soap and a soft > cloth. Be sure to remove all of the soap and water with a dry cloth so > your tin will not rust." > >> this is a political systems failure dude, not electronics systems. > > Dittohead. > > After some thought I have come to the conclusion that what we have here is the typical "Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up". True, there is nothing to suggest there were a simultaneous failures etc, however, at the same time, there isn't anything (that we know about) to suggest what did go wrong. I would find it interesting to see the logic and functional diagrams of the various operating systems. There can be numerous erroneous signal inputs that will trigger odd responses. For example, a hard cruise control error signal that says "hey, you're way underspeed--go faster!" And the car accelerates----stepping on the brake may or may not cancel out this signal depending on where it is within the system. I don't know exactly what information is recorded (in memory) in the car's ECU--there should be some algorithms to detect when an exceedance of a limit occurs, followed by a recording of pertinent key parameters (vs time) to be retained in memory . Usually, the recording will begin several seconds before the failure event began. I've seen normal operating (transient) behavior trigger logic as a result of a perceived exceedance resulting in a sequence of events that ultimately led to the failure of a jet engine. In other words, you don't need a failure to get into trouble, just a control system that takes you down that road. Hmmm, I wonder if Beam is a frustrated Toyota PR guy. MLD
From: Ashton Crusher on 27 Feb 2010 17:24
On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 22:54:16 +0000 (UTC), Tegger <invalid(a)invalid.inv> wrote: >"C. E. White" <cewhite3(a)mindspring.com> wrote in news:hm661q$p58$1 >@news.eternal-september.org: > >> >> "Tegger" <invalid(a)invalid.inv> wrote in message >> news:Xns9D2A4B185CB99tegger(a)208.90.168.18... >> >>> Or it's simple pedal misapplication, which is the most common cause >>> of SUA >>> by far, and is essentially out of /any/ automaker's control. >> >> Not really - software that recognized both pedals are pressed could >> cut power to the engine. > > >Which Toyota is doing. > >But that doesn't affect pedal misapplication if only ONE pedal is >depressed. That situation covers the overwhleming majority of SUA >incidents. > > Where can one find the data to support your claim? |