Toyota Throttle Electronics Easily Confused
in [Technical]
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From: hls on 25 Feb 2010 09:04 "ransley" <Mark_Ransley(a)Yahoo.com> wrote in message news:c1e1010c-6b0a-4098- My attitude is logic, yours ignorance. *********** What we need are facts, not "logic" nor innuendo. "Logic" leads a lot of people to false conclusions.
From: jim beam on 25 Feb 2010 09:15 On 02/24/2010 09:19 PM, Uncle_vito wrote: > Made in Japan only applies to the accelerator fix. If it is a software > problem, all bets are off. Could be in cars no matter where made since they > do noit know the cause. How can they say which cars are not affected? dude, it it were a software problem, /all/ their vehicles would be exhibiting the exact same problem all the time. that may be a hard concept for a paid congressional "witness" to grasp, but it's a logical test you can apply and understand easily. > > Vito > > > > "Mr Ed"<ecamin(a)earthlink.net> wrote in message > news:H9KdnXTvQ_hTFBjWnZ2dnUVZ_jCdnZ2d(a)earthlink.com... >> Years ago I had a Chrysler product that developed a engine problem that >> created a code. After that the car would only max out at 20mph. Just >> enough to limp into the dealer to fix or re-set the code. 20 years ago >> before I retired, I tested eletronic products for Test House approvals >> (UL, ETL, CSA, etc). Our purpose was to assure that no matter what >> internal device failed, it didn't create a deadly problem. Why can't >> Toyota prove that no matter what component failed, short or open, that the >> car will not exceed a safe speed? I don't believe they did their homework >> properly. Removing my floor mat in my Prius is a joke. There is no way it >> can jam the pedal that my foot on the mat couldn't move it away from the >> pedal within seconds. The only reason I removed it (per the recall) is so >> if my car becomes a run away missile at least my heirs can become >> Millionaires. That doesn't comfort me. Re-designing the pedal is only a >> band-aide to the real problem. Since my car was made in Japan, I'm not >> included. >> >> Mr Ed >> http://www.ed-camin.com >> http://home.earthlink.net/~bcamin/betty.htm >> http://www.mountairykiwanis.org >> http://www.ma-artleague.org >> http://home.earthlink.net/~j3dogs/index.htm >> http://home.earthlink.net/~donnahayes/index.htm >> "JoeSpareBedroom"<newstrash(a)frontiernet.net> wrote in message >> news:4ifhn.17771$Dv7.16146(a)newsfe17.iad... >>> "Hachiroku ????"<Trueno(a)e86.GTS> wrote in message >>> news:hm3v6o$qkn$1(a)news.eternal-september.org... >>>> On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 06:55:23 -0500, JoeSpareBedroom wrote: >>>> >>>>> "jim beam"<me(a)privacy.net> wrote in message >>>>> news:o4SdnZnR94D1KBnWnZ2dnUVZ_j6dnZ2d(a)speakeasy.net... >>>>>> On 02/23/2010 05:47 PM, john wrote: >>>>>>> The floor mats and sticking pedal accounts for only 30% of the >>>>>>> problems. The true cause of sudden acceleration is still not known so >>>>>>> no real solution is possible. IMO it's the electronics. >>>>>> >>>>>> "in your opinion"? are you a software engineer? are you an >>>>>> electrical >>>>>> engineer? are you /any/ form of engineer? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> He can swap a hard drive while blindfolded, and he knows some >>>>> geologists. >>>> >>>> Look again. You're talking about the wrong person. >>>> >>>> Gee, you've NEVER been wrong before!!! >>> >>> >>> Oops. >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > -- nomina rutrum rutrum
From: jim beam on 25 Feb 2010 09:23 On 02/25/2010 06:04 AM, Vic Smith wrote: > On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 12:22:58 +0000 (UTC), Tegger<invalid(a)invalid.inv> > wrote: > >> On Feb 23, 7:47 pm, john<johngd...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: >>> The floor mats and sticking pedal accounts for only 30% of the >>> problems. The true cause of sudden acceleration is still not known so >>> no real solution is possible. IMO it's the electronics. >> >> >> >> Or it's simple pedal misapplication, which is the most common cause of SUA >> by far, and is essentially out of /any/ automaker's control. >> >> >> >>> >>>> "In earlier testimony, David Gilbert, a Southern Illinois University >>>> professor, tells the panel he was able to produce in a lab environment >>>> a sudden-acceleration incident using a Toyota vehicle, in essence by >>>> introducing a short between two circuits. >>>> >>>> Gilbert, whose research was sponsored by consumer advocacy firm Safety >>>> Research& Strategies, says it was fairly simple to confuse the Toyota >>>> electronics, but he has so far been unable to introduce a similar >>>> failure in the electronic controls for a Buick Lucerne." >> >> >> >> The lab that Toyota retained managed to reproduce Gilbert's result, but >> said that they found it extremely unlikely that such an event could >> actually occur in the real world. > > I've been following this pretty closely. since I'm retired (-: > Watched hours of hearings, read many articles, etc. > A few points. > Exponent, the lab Toyota hired, is suspect, because their client is > Toyota. Just works that way. You need an independent lab. > Gilbert's findings, though he is sincere, are suspect, because they > haven't been tied to the real world. > The problem is - nobody has really defined a widespread problem. > Sure, the mats - that's been taken care. > The sticky pedals - that's been taken care of. > The need for brake over ride circuitry - that will happen. > The Lexus engine shutdown issue - don't know what's in the works, but > I expect that delayed button will be replaced with a positive instant > means to shot down - could still be a button. > What's left - from what I've seen - is a couple believable cases of > "unintended acceleration" > Where the engine revs on it's own to the limiter. > That weird stuff happened to the Smith woman who testified, and > it happened to a guy who testified on the second day. > These were clear cases of electronic wildly controlling the engine > with no human input. > Nobody has figured those out. Might have nothing to do with pedal > circuitry. > I've mentioned before I experienced this in '85 TBI 2.0 Cavalier. > Didn't go wide open, but would push the car to 50mph with no pedal > input. Brakes easily handled it. > Turned out it was the ECU, which failed entirely a maybe a week after > the problem started. > Most likely an attached scanner could have quickly found the issue, > because though it was intermittent, you didn't have to wait long for > it to happen, and it could be reproduced just by driving for about 5 > miles. > But it is possible that a confluence of conditions messing with modern > design electronic signals, combined with hardware anomalies/tolerances > can make this kind of thing happen again, and it will be hell to > reproduce it. this is just vague hand waving and guesswork by people completely unfamiliar with the reality. > That's why brake overrides and a simple means to shut down are > necessities. they won't stop the incompetent pressing the wrong pedal and swearing it was the car's fault. > My bottom line on this is the big problems are Toyota not jumping hard > on the mat and pedal problems, the Toyota memo about saving $100 > million by forestalling recalls, the oily relationship between mfgs > and NHTSA because of revolving doors, and - the biggest of all - the > cell phone call from the car of the highway patrolman as he and his > family went to flaming death. double-standard bullshit. frod bribed the entire congress into accepting a lie about tires being at fault for a fundamentally flawed vehicle design. where the heck were all you guys then? > That cell phone call is what has really screwed Toyota. > But hell, the car was a loner from a Toyota dealership, the previous > driver had the same issue, and I think the mat issue was supposed to > be taken care of. So they bought that one with eyes wide open. > With millions of cars on the road this "unintended acceleration" won't > go away. Glitches are going to happen. But it can be contained. > Aside from that lame delayed Lexus shutdown, I certainly don't think > Toyotas are more dangerous than other cars, > But I'm not the general public or Congress. > > --Vic here's the acid test: why haven't i experienced these problems when i've been driving toyota's? -- nomina rutrum rutrum
From: JoeSpareBedroom on 25 Feb 2010 09:31 "jim beam" <me(a)privacy.net> wrote in message news:R4-dnTmmcqSLGxvWnZ2dnUVZ_rBi4p2d(a)speakeasy.net... > On 02/24/2010 09:19 PM, Uncle_vito wrote: >> Made in Japan only applies to the accelerator fix. If it is a software >> problem, all bets are off. Could be in cars no matter where made since >> they >> do noit know the cause. How can they say which cars are not affected? > > dude, it it were a software problem, /all/ their vehicles would be > exhibiting the exact same problem all the time. Not really. But if you're desperate to appear correct, you can continue to believe that. > that may be a hard concept for a paid congressional "witness" to grasp, > but it's a logical test you can apply and understand easily. > > > >> >> Vito >> >> >> >> "Mr Ed"<ecamin(a)earthlink.net> wrote in message >> news:H9KdnXTvQ_hTFBjWnZ2dnUVZ_jCdnZ2d(a)earthlink.com... >>> Years ago I had a Chrysler product that developed a engine problem that >>> created a code. After that the car would only max out at 20mph. Just >>> enough to limp into the dealer to fix or re-set the code. 20 years ago >>> before I retired, I tested eletronic products for Test House approvals >>> (UL, ETL, CSA, etc). Our purpose was to assure that no matter what >>> internal device failed, it didn't create a deadly problem. Why can't >>> Toyota prove that no matter what component failed, short or open, that >>> the >>> car will not exceed a safe speed? I don't believe they did their >>> homework >>> properly. Removing my floor mat in my Prius is a joke. There is no way >>> it >>> can jam the pedal that my foot on the mat couldn't move it away from the >>> pedal within seconds. The only reason I removed it (per the recall) is >>> so >>> if my car becomes a run away missile at least my heirs can become >>> Millionaires. That doesn't comfort me. Re-designing the pedal is only a >>> band-aide to the real problem. Since my car was made in Japan, I'm not >>> included. >>> >>> Mr Ed >>> http://www.ed-camin.com >>> http://home.earthlink.net/~bcamin/betty.htm >>> http://www.mountairykiwanis.org >>> http://www.ma-artleague.org >>> http://home.earthlink.net/~j3dogs/index.htm >>> http://home.earthlink.net/~donnahayes/index.htm >>> "JoeSpareBedroom"<newstrash(a)frontiernet.net> wrote in message >>> news:4ifhn.17771$Dv7.16146(a)newsfe17.iad... >>>> "Hachiroku ????"<Trueno(a)e86.GTS> wrote in message >>>> news:hm3v6o$qkn$1(a)news.eternal-september.org... >>>>> On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 06:55:23 -0500, JoeSpareBedroom wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> "jim beam"<me(a)privacy.net> wrote in message >>>>>> news:o4SdnZnR94D1KBnWnZ2dnUVZ_j6dnZ2d(a)speakeasy.net... >>>>>>> On 02/23/2010 05:47 PM, john wrote: >>>>>>>> The floor mats and sticking pedal accounts for only 30% of the >>>>>>>> problems. The true cause of sudden acceleration is still not known >>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>> no real solution is possible. IMO it's the electronics. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "in your opinion"? are you a software engineer? are you an >>>>>>> electrical >>>>>>> engineer? are you /any/ form of engineer? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> He can swap a hard drive while blindfolded, and he knows some >>>>>> geologists. >>>>> >>>>> Look again. You're talking about the wrong person. >>>>> >>>>> Gee, you've NEVER been wrong before!!! >>>> >>>> >>>> Oops. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > -- > nomina rutrum rutrum
From: C. E. White on 25 Feb 2010 09:56
"john" <johngdole(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message news:632aabcb-70bd-4397-879b-f6da50eb972f(a)l12g2000prg.googlegroups.com... > The floor mats and sticking pedal accounts for only 30% of the > problems. The true cause of sudden acceleration is still not known > so > no real solution is possible. IMO it's the electronics. > > "In earlier testimony, David Gilbert, a Southern Illinois University > professor, tells the panel he was able to produce in a lab > environment > a sudden-acceleration incident using a Toyota vehicle, in essence by > introducing a short between two circuits. Consider who is paying for this research....Trail Lawyers! This is eerily like the Audi 5000 frenzy. When 60 minutes did their hatchet job on the 5000, they produced an "expert" who "proved" that the 5000's automatic transmission could force a kick down of the accelerator pedal, resulting in sudden acceleration. Good old Ed Bradly presented this as some sort of scientific proof. Only later did we learn (and not from CBS) that the expert added an extra hydraulic pump and external piping to demonstarte this "failure" mode. There may or may not be an actual problem with the Toyota electronics. But an "expert" that creates shorts to "prove" there is a problem is not the sort of expert I trust. Ed |