From: Jeff Strickland on

"dsi1" <dsi1(a)humuhumunukunukuapuapa.org> wrote in message
news:D8%jn.69090$Ye4.53425(a)newsfe11.iad...
> On 3/4/2010 4:49 PM, Jeff Strickland wrote:
>> "john"<johngdole(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:0dbebe1e-d08d-4e40-94b0-f3708655765e(a)c37g2000prb.googlegroups.com...
>>> That must be Toyota's way of taking the 5th!
>>>
>>> Before she died, the 5-foot-2, 125-pound woman told relatives she was
>>> practically standing with both feet on the brake pedal but could not
>>> stop the car from slamming into a building. Records confirm that
>>> emergency personnel found Grossman with both feet on the brake pedal.
>>>
>>> Toyota has for years blocked access to data stored in devices similar
>>> to airline "black boxes" that could explain crashes blamed on sudden
>>> unintended acceleration, according to an Associated Press review of
>>> lawsuits nationwide and interviews with auto crash experts.
>>>
>>> Full article at:
>>> http://finance.yahoo.com/news/AP-IMPACT-Toyota-secretive-on-apf-1294427692.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=1&asset=&ccode=
>>>
>>
>> It's time that black box data comes into the public domain. Just like OBD
>> II
>> data has been found to be public domain, black box data should be public
>> domain as well.
>>
>> It's my car, it's my data.
>
>
> The data is available to you now. I see no reason why you couldn't hook up
> a laptop to your present car and record everything at the data port in
> real time. There's probably a market for a recorder that is simply plugged
> into the port for later uploading although I doubt that most people would
> actually buy something like that.
>
> But not to worry, your car will soon be sending out data while you're
> driving. Recording data is easy now that all the subsystems on cars are
> being monitored. Add GPS and wireless capabilities and you're on your way
> to a brighter future. :-) Soon we'll be able to track most any car and
> pull info on it. You might be able to pull data from it too but I'm not so
> sure that it's gonna be your data. I think the government and the
> automobile manufacturers may have first dibs on that one. :-)
>
>
>

You're not following along very well. Toyota (specifically) and others have
the data in a proprietary format, and there was only one computer in the USA
that was able to read it. Toyota recently sent three more computers, so now
there are four that can read the Toyota data set from the black box. It is
coming to light that the boxes contain data that Toyota has spent millions
of dollars to NOT divulge on the basis of "industry secret," or some such
claim.

I'm not taking aim at Toyota, per se. My position is that black boxes should
be public domain so that the data set can be used by the vehicle owner and
his agent. If there is a reason to hide the data, that reason should be that
the consumer (owner) is the one that needs to be protected, not the vehicle
maker. Toyota's position is that black boxes contain information that would
make Toyota look bad, and therefore the data should be hidden. If Toyota
wants to avoid looking bad, then it can either fix its cars or stop selling
them. Toyota can use the data, if it fits, to show its innocence if somebody
is suing, but it ought not be able to hide the data to protect it from
liability.







From: dsi1 on
On 3/5/2010 8:04 AM, Jeff Strickland wrote:
> "dsi1"<dsi1(a)humuhumunukunukuapuapa.org> wrote in message
> news:D8%jn.69090$Ye4.53425(a)newsfe11.iad...
>> On 3/4/2010 4:49 PM, Jeff Strickland wrote:
>>> "john"<johngdole(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:0dbebe1e-d08d-4e40-94b0-f3708655765e(a)c37g2000prb.googlegroups.com...
>>>> That must be Toyota's way of taking the 5th!
>>>>
>>>> Before she died, the 5-foot-2, 125-pound woman told relatives she was
>>>> practically standing with both feet on the brake pedal but could not
>>>> stop the car from slamming into a building. Records confirm that
>>>> emergency personnel found Grossman with both feet on the brake pedal.
>>>>
>>>> Toyota has for years blocked access to data stored in devices similar
>>>> to airline "black boxes" that could explain crashes blamed on sudden
>>>> unintended acceleration, according to an Associated Press review of
>>>> lawsuits nationwide and interviews with auto crash experts.
>>>>
>>>> Full article at:
>>>> http://finance.yahoo.com/news/AP-IMPACT-Toyota-secretive-on-apf-1294427692.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=1&asset=&ccode=
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's time that black box data comes into the public domain. Just like OBD
>>> II
>>> data has been found to be public domain, black box data should be public
>>> domain as well.
>>>
>>> It's my car, it's my data.
>>
>>
>> The data is available to you now. I see no reason why you couldn't hook up
>> a laptop to your present car and record everything at the data port in
>> real time. There's probably a market for a recorder that is simply plugged
>> into the port for later uploading although I doubt that most people would
>> actually buy something like that.
>>
>> But not to worry, your car will soon be sending out data while you're
>> driving. Recording data is easy now that all the subsystems on cars are
>> being monitored. Add GPS and wireless capabilities and you're on your way
>> to a brighter future. :-) Soon we'll be able to track most any car and
>> pull info on it. You might be able to pull data from it too but I'm not so
>> sure that it's gonna be your data. I think the government and the
>> automobile manufacturers may have first dibs on that one. :-)
>>
>>
>>
>
> You're not following along very well. Toyota (specifically) and others have
> the data in a proprietary format, and there was only one computer in the USA
> that was able to read it. Toyota recently sent three more computers, so now
> there are four that can read the Toyota data set from the black box. It is
> coming to light that the boxes contain data that Toyota has spent millions
> of dollars to NOT divulge on the basis of "industry secret," or some such
> claim.

If Toyota wants to call this data proprietary why not? Microsoft and
Apple have their proprietary data. I hate to break the news to you but
most companies have info they consider for internal use only. Do you
have a right to that stuff too? All I'm saying is that with a little
work, you can record data from your car in real time yourself.

>
> I'm not taking aim at Toyota, per se. My position is that black boxes should
> be public domain so that the data set can be used by the vehicle owner and
> his agent. If there is a reason to hide the data, that reason should be that
> the consumer (owner) is the one that needs to be protected, not the vehicle
> maker. Toyota's position is that black boxes contain information that would
> make Toyota look bad, and therefore the data should be hidden. If Toyota
> wants to avoid looking bad, then it can either fix its cars or stop selling
> them. Toyota can use the data, if it fits, to show its innocence if somebody
> is suing, but it ought not be able to hide the data to protect it from
> liability.
>

Sooner or later, Toyota and others will make this data available and
this kind of data will be available to accident investigations in the
future. That seems to be inevitable and there's not much use in getting
excited about the inevitable. It's likely that drivers as a group will
be hurt by this technology as in most cases, it will be considered solid
proof of their idiotic behavior. That's the breaks but that's what comes
from opening this Pandora's box. :-)

From: AMuzi on
C. E. White wrote:
> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop(a)nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
> news:elmop-84E137.08334305032010(a)nothing.attdns.com...
>> In article
>> <4e08f574-e7ae-4f01-a649-30a0a6cf40ec(a)t23g2000yqt.googlegroups.com>,
>> ransley <Mark_Ransley(a)Yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Buy a Ford feed 10 US families, Buy a Toyota feed 10 Jap
>>> families.
>> Buy a Ford feed 100 Mexican families, buy a Toyota and feed 10
>> American
>> families.
>
> Neither is true. And the fact is, despite assembling some cars in
> Mexico, Ford averages the highest domestic content of any company
> selling cars in the US.
>
> Let do a quick fact check...The Ford Hermosillo Mexico plant employs
> around 2,700 people (probably not all Mexican, but we will ignore
> that). The plant produces around 210,000 Fusion, Milans, and MKZ's a
> year. Do the math, it takes almost 80 cars to pay the salary of one
> worker for the year. So I guess you could say, buy a Ford Fusion, feed
> 0.0125 Mexican families for a year. Or buy a Ford Fusion and fedd a
> Mexican family for 4.6 days. Of course, at the same time you will also
> be feeding familes in the US, China, Japan, etc., etc.
>
> BTW, last time I checked, Mexico was consideredd part of North
> America. I think Mexicans and Canadians can be considered "Americans."
> Of course this brings up the question of what is really the correct
> term for residents of the United States of America so as to avoid
> being confused with residents o North, Central, and South America.
>
> The US Government has actively encouraged US companies to set up shop
> in Mexico. If you don't like the practice, you should write your
> Congress person.

"correct term for residents of the United States of America"

Over in rec.bicycles.tech, Tom Sherman suggests "USAians"



--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
From: Ray O on

"Jeff Strickland" <crwlrjeff(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:hmrgk0$llt$1(a)news.eternal-september.org...
>
> "Ray O" <rokigawa(a)NOSPAMtristarassociates.com> wrote in message
> news:hmpudl$e4c$2(a)news.eternal-september.org...
>>
>> "Jeff Strickland" <crwlrjeff(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:hmprgv$srb$1(a)news.eternal-september.org...
>>>
>>> "john" <johngdole(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:0dbebe1e-d08d-4e40-94b0-f3708655765e(a)c37g2000prb.googlegroups.com...
>>>> That must be Toyota's way of taking the 5th!
>>>>
>>>> Before she died, the 5-foot-2, 125-pound woman told relatives she was
>>>> practically standing with both feet on the brake pedal but could not
>>>> stop the car from slamming into a building. Records confirm that
>>>> emergency personnel found Grossman with both feet on the brake pedal.
>>>>
>>>> Toyota has for years blocked access to data stored in devices similar
>>>> to airline "black boxes" that could explain crashes blamed on sudden
>>>> unintended acceleration, according to an Associated Press review of
>>>> lawsuits nationwide and interviews with auto crash experts.
>>>>
>>>> Full article at:
>>>> http://finance.yahoo.com/news/AP-IMPACT-Toyota-secretive-on-apf-1294427692.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=1&asset=&ccode=
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's time that black box data comes into the public domain. Just like
>>> OBD II data has been found to be public domain, black box data should be
>>> public domain as well.
>>>
>>> It's my car, it's my data.
>>>
>>
>> EDR's will become required equipment soon, the regulations are already in
>> place.
>> --
>
>
> Yeah, but the data they contain needs to be standardized. Today, the data
> is sorta like the old OBD I spec, it was there but it took a variety of
> methods to get to it, depending on the make and model of the car they
> needed to get the data out of. The data needs to be standardized to
> facilitate extraction and analysis.
>

Starting with 2013 MY vehicles made after September 1, 2012, EDR data format
and minimum data collected will be standardized and the method for
retrieving the data will have to be made public. I'm not sure if that means
that the devices used to retrieve the data will be universal or not. This
doesn't mean that all vehicles will have EDR's, just that if it does have
one, it will have to meet minimum standards.

The challenge is that although the data belongs to the vehicle owner,
interpretation of the data is beyond the average vehicle owner's
capabilities, and probably beyond just about everyone without an automotive
engineering background so even if you could easily access the data, you
would probably have to pay someone to interpret the data correctly. This is
kind of like saying that anyone could buy an EKG or ECG machine, but it
takes training to be able to use the data the machines produce.
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)


From: Jeff Strickland on

"dsi1" <dsi1(a)spamnet.com> wrote in message
news:Xxckn.7968$NH1.2699(a)newsfe14.iad...
> On 3/5/2010 8:04 AM, Jeff Strickland wrote:
>> "dsi1"<dsi1(a)humuhumunukunukuapuapa.org> wrote in message
>> news:D8%jn.69090$Ye4.53425(a)newsfe11.iad...
>>> On 3/4/2010 4:49 PM, Jeff Strickland wrote:
>>>> "john"<johngdole(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:0dbebe1e-d08d-4e40-94b0-f3708655765e(a)c37g2000prb.googlegroups.com...
>>>>> That must be Toyota's way of taking the 5th!
>>>>>
>>>>> Before she died, the 5-foot-2, 125-pound woman told relatives she was
>>>>> practically standing with both feet on the brake pedal but could not
>>>>> stop the car from slamming into a building. Records confirm that
>>>>> emergency personnel found Grossman with both feet on the brake pedal.
>>>>>
>>>>> Toyota has for years blocked access to data stored in devices similar
>>>>> to airline "black boxes" that could explain crashes blamed on sudden
>>>>> unintended acceleration, according to an Associated Press review of
>>>>> lawsuits nationwide and interviews with auto crash experts.
>>>>>
>>>>> Full article at:
>>>>> http://finance.yahoo.com/news/AP-IMPACT-Toyota-secretive-on-apf-1294427692.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=1&asset=&ccode=
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's time that black box data comes into the public domain. Just like
>>>> OBD
>>>> II
>>>> data has been found to be public domain, black box data should be
>>>> public
>>>> domain as well.
>>>>
>>>> It's my car, it's my data.
>>>
>>>
>>> The data is available to you now. I see no reason why you couldn't hook
>>> up
>>> a laptop to your present car and record everything at the data port in
>>> real time. There's probably a market for a recorder that is simply
>>> plugged
>>> into the port for later uploading although I doubt that most people
>>> would
>>> actually buy something like that.
>>>
>>> But not to worry, your car will soon be sending out data while you're
>>> driving. Recording data is easy now that all the subsystems on cars are
>>> being monitored. Add GPS and wireless capabilities and you're on your
>>> way
>>> to a brighter future. :-) Soon we'll be able to track most any car and
>>> pull info on it. You might be able to pull data from it too but I'm not
>>> so
>>> sure that it's gonna be your data. I think the government and the
>>> automobile manufacturers may have first dibs on that one. :-)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> You're not following along very well. Toyota (specifically) and others
>> have
>> the data in a proprietary format, and there was only one computer in the
>> USA
>> that was able to read it. Toyota recently sent three more computers, so
>> now
>> there are four that can read the Toyota data set from the black box. It
>> is
>> coming to light that the boxes contain data that Toyota has spent
>> millions
>> of dollars to NOT divulge on the basis of "industry secret," or some such
>> claim.
>
> If Toyota wants to call this data proprietary why not? Microsoft and Apple
> have their proprietary data. I hate to break the news to you but most
> companies have info they consider for internal use only. Do you have a
> right to that stuff too? All I'm saying is that with a little work, you
> can record data from your car in real time yourself.
>


When MSoft or Apple develope products that can kill me while you are using
them, then we can discuss whether the codesets they use should be
proprietary or not. Right now, automakers are producing products that can
kill you if used the way they are intended, and they are hiding behind the
idea that the data stored is their data or your data.


>>
>> I'm not taking aim at Toyota, per se. My position is that black boxes
>> should
>> be public domain so that the data set can be used by the vehicle owner
>> and
>> his agent. If there is a reason to hide the data, that reason should be
>> that
>> the consumer (owner) is the one that needs to be protected, not the
>> vehicle
>> maker. Toyota's position is that black boxes contain information that
>> would
>> make Toyota look bad, and therefore the data should be hidden. If Toyota
>> wants to avoid looking bad, then it can either fix its cars or stop
>> selling
>> them. Toyota can use the data, if it fits, to show its innocence if
>> somebody
>> is suing, but it ought not be able to hide the data to protect it from
>> liability.
>>
>
> Sooner or later, Toyota and others will make this data available and this
> kind of data will be available to accident investigations in the future.
> That seems to be inevitable and there's not much use in getting excited
> about the inevitable. It's likely that drivers as a group will be hurt by
> this technology as in most cases, it will be considered solid proof of
> their idiotic behavior. That's the breaks but that's what comes from
> opening this Pandora's box. :-)
>

Soon or later is the problem. It should be sooner rather than later.