From: Jeckyl on
"� UltraMan �" <ultra(a)man.jp> wrote in message
news:5a2tguF2n0n4hU1(a)mid.individual.net...
> Martin Phipps wrote:
>> Not quite. Agnostics don't know that gods exists but they also aren't
>> sure if he doesn't exist. An agnostic person could take Pascal's
>> Wager and decide that he should pray just in case. That position
>> doesn't make him particularly honest but then few theists are.
>
> Most Agnostics are Atheists, they are just too cowardly to admit it.

Agnostics happily admit they are atheists .. because atheism is a lack of
theist belief .. and agnostics lack that belief (because there is not proof
to support it).

Further an agnostic is opposed to religions (or other authorities) that say
that one should belief something without proof.

There is nothing cowardly about an agnostics. They have honest and logical
principles that they live by, and are not swayed by pressure from those
supposed authorities who claim to have special 'knowledge' without proof
(including theists and strong-atheists).


From: Kent Wills on
As I understand it, on 4 May 2007 23:03:21 -0700, Martin Phipps
<martinphipps2(a)yahoo.com> wrote:

>On May 5, 7:09 am, Kent Wills <compu...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>> As I understand it, on Thu, 03 May 2007 19:03:25 -0700, "Fred G.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Mackey" <nos...(a)dont.spam> wrote:
>> >Jeckyl wrote:
>> >> "Kent Wills" <compu...(a)gmail.com> wrote in message
>> >>news:hatk331kpodcvs6mel0a1gmeklc6rq8qo8(a)4ax.com...
>>
>> >>>As I understand it, on Fri, 4 May 2007 03:14:47 +1000, "Jeckyl"
>> >>><n...(a)nowhere.com> wrote:
>>
>> >>>>>>_ Prof. Jonez _ <thep...(a)jonez.net> wrote:
>>
>> >>>>>>>I will gladly show that your pig-ignorant grotesque
>> >>>>>>>perverted superstition that you call christianity is
>> >>>>>>>utterly false.
>>
>> >>>>Please present this proof.
>>
>> >>>I've been asking for proof that atheism is correct for a very
>> >>>long time.
>>
>> >> Easy ..
>>
>> >> The theist position is to know that god exists
>> >> The atheist position is to not know that god exists
>> >> There is no proof that god exists
>> >> We cannot conclude that god exists or does not exist
>> >> Gods existance is unknown
>> >> The atheist position is correct
>>
>> >That's not a proof.
>
>Why not? Where's the flaw in his logic? Point it out for us,

That's the position of an agnostic, not an atheist.

>
>> It's a belief. Nothing more.
>
>You need to learn the difference between belief and fact. For
>example, it is a fact that your god does not exist, even though your
>insane mind will continue to believe that it does.
>

If so, you should be able to prove this fact. Please do so
now.

--
Kent
Born once - Die twice. Born twice - Die only once. Your choice...
Sig "borrowed" from Joe.
From: Christopher A.Lee on
On Sat, 5 May 2007 22:58:09 +1000, "Jeckyl" <noone(a)nowhere.com> wrote:

>"� UltraMan �" <ultra(a)man.jp> wrote in message
>news:5a2tguF2n0n4hU1(a)mid.individual.net...
>> Martin Phipps wrote:
>>> Not quite. Agnostics don't know that gods exists but they also aren't
>>> sure if he doesn't exist. An agnostic person could take Pascal's
>>> Wager and decide that he should pray just in case. That position
>>> doesn't make him particularly honest but then few theists are.
>>
>> Most Agnostics are Atheists, they are just too cowardly to admit it.
>
>Agnostics happily admit they are atheists .. because atheism is a lack of
>theist belief .. and agnostics lack that belief (because there is not proof
>to support it).

Unless they are agnostic theists - who believe but admit they don't
know.

>Further an agnostic is opposed to religions (or other authorities) that say
>that one should belief something without proof.
>
>There is nothing cowardly about an agnostics. They have honest and logical
>principles that they live by, and are not swayed by pressure from those
>supposed authorities who claim to have special 'knowledge' without proof
>(including theists and strong-atheists).

What "special knowledge" are you pretending strong atheists have?
From: Kent Wills on
As I understand it, on Fri, 04 May 2007 19:12:30 -0400, Christopher
A.Lee <calee(a)optonline.net> wrote:

>On Fri, 04 May 2007 18:06:28 -0500, Kent Wills <compuelf(a)gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>As I understand it, on Fri, 4 May 2007 10:37:06 +1000, "Jeckyl"
>><noone(a)nowhere.com> wrote:
>>
>>>"Kent Wills" <compuelf(a)gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>news:hatk331kpodcvs6mel0a1gmeklc6rq8qo8(a)4ax.com...
>>>> As I understand it, on Fri, 4 May 2007 03:14:47 +1000, "Jeckyl"
>>>> <noone(a)nowhere.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>> _ Prof. Jonez _ <theprof(a)jonez.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> I will gladly show that your pig-ignorant grotesque
>>>>>>>> perverted superstition that you call christianity is
>>>>>>>> utterly false.
>>>>>
>>>>>Please present this proof.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I've been asking for proof that atheism is correct for a very
>>>> long time.
>>>
>>>Easy ..
>>>
>>>The theist position is to know that god exists
>>
>> To claim to KNOW is to claim to have proof. No sane person
>>would claim to KNOW there is a god.
>> I do believe, but freely admit I can't prove that God exists.
>
>Then you're an agnostic theist.

If so, everyone who believes in a deity would fall under the
term agnostic theist, since there is no way to prove any deity exists.

>
>>>The atheist position is to not know that god exists
>>
>> That's an agnostic's position.
>
>No, because it's not even part of their world view.

Agnostics don't know if there is or is not a god.

>
>>>There is no proof that god exists
>>
>> Exactly. It's a belief.
>
>Somebody else's belief. The demands for proof are when they beg the
>question by rudely and stupidly talking about it to people outside
>their religion. Basically "put up or shut up". But they have neither
>the integrity nor the courtesy to do either.

I freely admit I can't prove the existence of God. I can
point to aspects of my life that support the idea that God does exist,
but it's not PROOF.

>
>>>We cannot conclude that god exists or does not exist
>>>Gods existance is unknown
>>>The atheist position is correct
>>>
>>
>> That's not the atheist position. You've done a GREAT job of
>>explaining the agnostic position.
>
>Only in the ignorant imagination of people who don't know what an
>atheist is.

Whereas ignorance is nothing more than a lack of knowledge.
Everyone is ignorant. Your attempt to insult me has failed.

--
Kent
"I most stonger than Darth Vapor!"
-- Zladko "Zlad" Vladcik
From: Kent Wills on
As I understand it, on 4 May 2007 23:00:48 -0700, Martin Phipps
<martinphipps2(a)yahoo.com> wrote:

>On May 5, 7:30 am, Kent Wills <compu...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>> As I understand it, on Thu, 3 May 2007 20:16:21 -0600, "� UltraMan �"
>>
>> <u...(a)man.jp> wrote:
>> >Meta wrote:
>> >> On May 3, 7:07 am, "_ Prof. Jonez _" <thep...(a)jonez.net> wrote:
>> >>> tjab wrote:
>> >>>> In article <59srujF2l7n0...(a)mid.individual.net>,
>> >>>> _ Prof. Jonez _ <thep...(a)jonez.net> wrote:
>> >>>>> Kent Wills wrote:
>>
>> >>>>>> Where's the proof that atheism is correct? Why do you run and
>> >>>>>> hide when I ask about it?
>>
>> >>>>> I will gladly show that your pig-ignorant grotesque
>> >>>>> perverted superstition that you call christianity is
>> >>>>> utterly false.
>
>Hey! What did you snip here?!
>
>> >> Those are some pretty harsh accusations - a superstition, huh?
>>
>> >Irrefutably.
>>
>> Then explain why you run away when asked to prove it.
>
>It's been proven time and time again that your god is a mythological
>character no different from Zeus or Amun-Ra.

So why do people fail to prove it when I ask? It should be a
simple matter of cut and paste if your statement is accurate.

>Just do google searches
>for "Elohim" and "Annuaki" and note the similarly between your
>religion and ancient Sumerian beliefs. Sumerian mythology inspired
>all of Western mythology, including Judeo-Christianity. Thus Judeo-
>Christianity is a set of mythological beliefs no different than
>ancient Greek or Egyptian mythological beliefs. QED
>

Can you prove those beliefs are wrong? I don't believe that
ancient Greek/Roman/Egyptian beliefs are true, but I'm honest enough
to admit I can't prove them true or untrue.
I believe these other gods do not exist, and freely state it.

--
Kent
Recuerdo del Fin Del Mundo!