From: hippo on
Clocky wrote:
> Noddy wrote:
> > "Clocky" <notgonn(a)> wrote in message
> > news:4b9a1655$0$27797$c3e8da3(a)
> >
> >> Traction control and ESP go hand in hand. Yes throttle control is
> >> part of ESP because it may need to reduce engine power where
> >> required to maintain traction.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Thought that might be the case.
> >
> > Fitting it to a performance car is a complete waste of time then :)
> There is always the off button ;-)

Twit! 'should' not 'whould' (must be softwhould)

Posted at
From: Jason James on

"Albm&ctd" <alb_mandctdNOWMD(a)> wrote in message
> A tech I knew used 240 mains into old speakers to blow them up for
> amusement
> value.

We had an instructor who was THE idiosyncratic of the training school. He
would cook a raw sausage by applying 240 with 2 nails as scewers each
end,..I kid you not! He'd apply some pulse-width modulation by switching the
ppoint on and off as things sizzled along...


From: Albm&ctd on
In article <4b99bdf4$0$27809$c3e8da3(a)>, notgonn(a)
> Noddy wrote:
> > "Clocky" <notgonn(a)> wrote in message
> > news:4b990da2$0$8758$c3e8da3(a)
> >
> >> Well, that is until you have worked at a Holden or Ford dealership
> >> where leaking pumps, racks and hoses are bread and butter jobs ;-)
> >
> > They're not without their faults, and I've repaired plenty of them
> > myself. However in the main they're pretty good and don't cause any
> > issues if and when they develop problems.
> >
> >> No system should be able to do that, and I already said that Toyota
> >> fucked something up.
> >
> > They did indeed, and that's the point.
> >
> > The fact that they *didn't* get it right which has demonstrated how an
> > electric power steering system *can* cause major problems highlights
> > the brittleness of the idea. At least with a conventional hydraulic
> > system even if the pump fell off it's bracket, got wedged in the
> > engine belt and was then shot out through the top of the bonnet it's
> > be highly unlikely that it would have any effect on the steering.
> >
> >> Easy to measure when the electric system only operates when turning
> >> the wheel as opposed to the hydraulic pump turning all the time.
> >
> > The load required to spin a power steering pump is very small, and it
> > varies according to what the wheels are doing. With the wheels in the
> > straight ahead position the pump is under no load and just
> > recirculating fluid. It's only when the wheels are turned does the
> > load change, and it varies according to the amount of turn applied.
> > Low speed full lock turns require a large load compared to high speed
> > straight line "adjustments".
> There is still measurable drag on the engine at any given time, not so with
> electic power steering.
It would be interesting to know how much drag. Even at a standstill idling the
power steering belt v-belt in older cars has to be fairly tight to avoid slip,
cold startup especially. I wouldn't be surprised if the drag was similar to an
alternator under load. I guess someone somewhere has got figures.

I don't take sides.
It's more fun to insult everyone.
From: Noddy on

"Noddy" <Mission.Control(a)> wrote in message

>> How about you provide a link to the report in the paper you read and lets
>> see what was actually written vs your interpretation of what was written.

Just to follow up on this, I just checked my paper stack (we're saving them
for wrapping at the moment as we're packing boxes for storage) and I've
still got the paper. It's pretty much as I told you. Two paragraphs at the
bottom of page 8 and the details are correct. The only detail I had wrong
was when it appeared in the paper. I thought it was last week or so, but it
was actually closer to a month ago (it's been a busy month :)

The Herald-Sun's website doesn't list the story exactly as it appears as
"fill" in the print edition, but they have a more elaborate version here:

And features a similar story (obviously from the same source)

After reading through those more detailed reports, it would seem the problem
is worse than the original print story made it out to be.


From: Jason James on

"Noddy" <me(a)> wrote in message
> "John Tserkezis" <jt(a)> wrote in message
> news:4b9b85c8$0$5421$afc38c87(a)
>> This steering issue had prompted me to do a little more homework. The
>> only way I can see that a steering *software* fault is going to cause a
>> crash, is if the steering is entirely steer-by-wire in the truest sense.
>> That is, the steering wheel is entirely separated from the rest of the
>> steering mechanism.
> I was thinking that very same thing myself, but as far as I'm aware the
> electric assist motors just wrap around the steering shaft and apply force
> to "assist".

If that is the case, it is safer in an "assistance fail" situation. The
motors simply stop applying torque and the steering reverts back to a std
unassist steering. That's my theory. In a hydraulic situation, the pump
stops turning and the Left-Right valves may just shut, meaning you'd have to
overcome *that* resistance before your arms can effect steering? A lot of
assumptions there, I know.


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