From: Diesel Damo on 10 Mar 2010 22:32
On Mar 10, 2:40 pm, "Noddy" <m...(a)home.com> wrote:
> You might recall recently I posted about the problems my neighbour was
> having with my old Jeep Cherokee with it's immobiliser unit playing up and
> how it took the dealer around 10 days to fix the thing. In the end it was
> repaired and they were back in business until it split a tank on the
> radiator a few weeks later and cooked the engine. The thing eventually went
> to a wreckers and they bought an *immaculate* early 90's Nissan Maxima to
> replace it. A really lovely car in outstanding condition and a credit to the
> bloke who owned it previously. Last week his wife took it to work and parked
> it where she normally does only to come out after the massive storm we had
> here to find it partially submerged in about 2 feet of water. The interior
> of the car was flooded up to the gear shifter and the thing is now a write
> off after they've owned it for 5 weeks.
Wow. Someone with worse luck in cars than me. Thanks I feel better
From: Jason James on 11 Mar 2010 00:25
"John Tserkezis" <jt(a)techniciansyndrome.org.invalid> wrote in message
> On 11/03/2010 8:22 AM, Doug Jewell wrote:
>> There is no reason for it to be bad. Aircraft have had fly-by-wire for
>> decades now, where it is controlling many more variables than just the
>> throttle. Of course there is the old adage "if it ain't Boeing i'm not
>> going", but Airbus's issues are to do with the programming of the FBW,
>> not the reliability of the hardware.
> Also note they are at least dual redundant (hardware and software)
> Is the Priarse dual redundant in its accelerator/brake controls? Or
> ANYTHING for that matter?
Good point,..all ground aviatrion gear is either dual redundant by
duplication or alternative system or in the case of some ATC comms/link
equip triple redundant.
From: Jason James on 11 Mar 2010 00:50
"Doug Jewell" <ask(a)and.maybe.ill.tell.you> wrote in message
> Jason James wrote:
>> "Milton" <millame23(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>> Oh dear! Mr Toyota must be shaking in his boots.
>>> A Toyota Prius has accelerated out of control on a busy California
>>> freeway before police intervened to bring the vehicle to a standstill,
>>> police said.
>>> James Sikes, 61, was driving on the busy Interstate 8 freeway outside
>>> San Diego when he noticed his car was starting to accelerate of its own
>>> accord, the California Highway Patrol said.
>>> The terrified motorist was helpless as the car hurtled out of control
>>> along the road at speeds more than 90 miles per hour.
>>> However Sikes was able to call police, and officers using a loudspeaker
>>> were talked the driver through the process of slowing down by using his
>>> emergency brake and then turning off the engine.
>>> Police then pulled in front of the car as it decelerated and rolled to a
>>> stop and put the rear bumper of the squad car against the front of the
>>> The incident came as Toyota staged a technical demonstration to attack
>>> allegations by a vocal critic that problems with its electronics may
>>> cause its cars to speed out of control.
>>> In recent months, Toyota has recalled more than 8 million vehicles
>>> worldwide due to acceleration issues.
>>> The latest incident in California was a chilling echo of the incident
>>> last August where off-duty California Highway Patrol Officer Mark Saylor
>>> was killed along with his wife, her brother and the Saylors' 13-year-old
>>> daughter when the accelerator of the Lexus ES350 they were in got stuck.
>>> Minutes later, the Toyota-manufactured vehicle slammed into the back of
>>> a sport utility vehicle at about 100mph, veered off the freeway,
>>> overturned and burst into flames. All four family members died.
>> Is the throttle "fly by wire". On that issue alone, I wouldnt buy such a
> The issue isn't FBW on it's own. I'm sure you're aware aircraft have used
> FBW for ages. The issue as I see it with these Toyotas, is that they have
> a programming fault that shows up occasionally, locking out human input -
> even to the point that it locks out turn-off. Of course most cars allow
> the ignition switch to be turned to the off position, but the keyless
> ignition of the toyotas requires pressing and holding the start button.
> Quite possible that if there is a computer fault, that the press & hold
> won't work either. At the very least it is a non-intuitive means of
> shutdown. I personally think they should have a master switch on the dash
> that shuts down all electrical systems other than lights.
I have no doubt what you say is true. After 30+ yrs in the electronics game,
I have seen many stuff-ups which were solved on commissioning night by the
install/maintenance techs. Electronics is so broad in its nature and fields,
it is a very game fellow indeed who would say "it's OK, it will work on the
night and forever after". In fact, long term bugs in software which occurred
ocassionally, but were annoying enough to warrant a full investigation were
fairly common across the different technologies. The equipment used to
catch the preceding and subsequent program states during a "glitch" (note
unique word for processor based screw-ups) weren't uncommon or all that
expensive,..but were invaluable in sizing up the problem (event recorders,
storage CROs, digital analysers).
From: Atheist Chaplain on 11 Mar 2010 01:40
"Clocky" <notgonn(a)happen.com> wrote in message
> Noddy wrote:
>> "Clocky" <notgonn(a)happen.com> wrote in message
>>> That's one model by one manufacturer. Hardly a reason to wholesale
>>> slam electronic power steering considering it has been in use by
>>> various manufacturers over many years without any problems ;-)
>> Some context is in order here.
>> It's one model by one manufacturer, sure, but it also happens to be
>> one of the world's most popular cars made by the world's largest
>> manufacturer who up until recently had a reputation of outstanding
>> reliability. If *they* can get it so clearly wrong then the concept
>> ain't foolproof, and it makes you wonder about the idea being
>> employed by "lesser" brands.
> One model from one manufacturer has zero relevance to any other model from
> any other manufacturer.
unless other manufactures rely on the same parts from the same supplier.
[This comment is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Church of
"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your
From: Clocky on 11 Mar 2010 01:57
Atheist Chaplain wrote:
> "Clocky" <notgonn(a)happen.com> wrote in message
>> Noddy wrote:
>>> "Clocky" <notgonn(a)happen.com> wrote in message
>>>> That's one model by one manufacturer. Hardly a reason to wholesale
>>>> slam electronic power steering considering it has been in use by
>>>> various manufacturers over many years without any problems ;-)
>>> Some context is in order here.
>>> It's one model by one manufacturer, sure, but it also happens to be
>>> one of the world's most popular cars made by the world's largest
>>> manufacturer who up until recently had a reputation of outstanding
>>> reliability. If *they* can get it so clearly wrong then the concept
>>> ain't foolproof, and it makes you wonder about the idea being
>>> employed by "lesser" brands.
>> One model from one manufacturer has zero relevance to any other
>> model from any other manufacturer.
> unless other manufactures rely on the same parts from the same
Granted, but that isn't the case here AFAIK.