From: Brimstone on

"Chelsea Tractor Man" <mr.c.tractor(a)hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:876t5uxqjbl9$.kaqsd6a5o6zh$.dlg(a)40tude.net...
> On Thu, 8 Jul 2010 08:36:48 +0100, Mike P wrote:
>
>>> thats as good a proof as we need. I can move a loaded narrowboat on the
>>> end
>>> of a rope, I cannot keep that weight up in the air.
>>
>> It's the lift innit?
>>
>> I bet if you had a good strong wind providing some lift, you could pull a
>> glider on the end of a rope along in the air ;-)
>
> yes, a very small one. The power needed to push an aerofoil through the
> air
> and generate enough lift to get a narrow boat's weight off the ground is
> large, unlike pulling it through the water.
>
A simple test, can a horse move a glider sufficiently to generate lift at
walking speed?


From: Mike P on
Brimstone wrote:
> "Chelsea Tractor Man" <mr.c.tractor(a)hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:876t5uxqjbl9$.kaqsd6a5o6zh$.dlg(a)40tude.net...
>> On Thu, 8 Jul 2010 08:36:48 +0100, Mike P wrote:
>>
>>>> thats as good a proof as we need. I can move a loaded narrowboat
>>>> on the end
>>>> of a rope, I cannot keep that weight up in the air.
>>>
>>> It's the lift innit?
>>>
>>> I bet if you had a good strong wind providing some lift, you could
>>> pull a glider on the end of a rope along in the air ;-)
>>
>> yes, a very small one. The power needed to push an aerofoil through
>> the air
>> and generate enough lift to get a narrow boat's weight off the
>> ground is large, unlike pulling it through the water.
>>
> A simple test, can a horse move a glider sufficiently to generate
> lift at walking speed?

Not that simple though is it? If the horse is pulling it into a 70mph gale..
then yes, it could.

You don't have that issue with a narrowboat
--
Mike P


From: Brimstone on

"Doug" <smithx(a)btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:e15e23b0-6f17-4b56-96da-4cde2c4a8b01(a)s9g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
> On 8 July, 08:14, "Brimstone" <brimst...(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
>> "Doug" <smi...(a)btinternet.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:e8634e1b-6ddf-4d51-93fe-8374d7fbe023(a)g19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>> > On 7 July, 17:50, "Brimstone" <brimst...(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >> "Doug" <smi...(a)btinternet.com> wrote in message
>>
>> >>news:3ce01a3d-4e76-422a-a638-a8b391b0a62b(a)i28g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> >> > On 7 July, 10:46, "Man at B&Q" <manatba...(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> On Jul 7, 8:27 am, "Brimstone" <brimst...(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> >> > "Doug" <smi...(a)btinternet.com> wrote in message
>>
>> >> >> >news:84108acc-0d80-4f10-bdcf-292273832372(a)u26g2000yqu.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> >> >> > > On 6 July, 19:08, "Brimstone" <brimst...(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> > >> "Doug" <smi...(a)btinternet.com> wrote in message
>>
>> >> >> > >>news:65c6aa89-896d-44f6-93b7-054f923b0f5b(a)k39g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> >> >> > >> > On 6 July, 08:56, "Brimstone" <brimst...(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> > >> >> Environmentalists want people to use electric vehicles and
>> >> >> > >> >> yet
>> >> >> > >> >> they
>> >> >> > >> >> also
>> >> >> > >> >> complain when new power stations are being proposed. Going
>> >> >> > >> >> by
>> >> >> > >> >> this
>> >> >> > >> >> report,
>> >> >> > >> >> there isn't enough generating capacity to support a massive
>> >> >> > >> >> increase
>> >> >> > >> >> in
>> >> >> > >> >> the
>> >> >> > >> >> use of electric vehicles and so new power stations will be
>> >> >> > >> >> needed
>> >> >> > >> >> in
>> >> >> > >> >> addition to replacing those which are worn out and in need
>> >> >> > >> >> of
>> >> >> > >> >> replacement.
>>
>> >> >> > >> >>http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/7874065/Electric-cars-must-b...
>>
>> >> >> > >> >> Quote: "Analysts for Saturn Energy calculated that a fuel
>> >> >> > >> >> duty
>> >> >> > >> >> of
>> >> >> > >> >> up
>> >> >> > >> >> to
>> >> >> > >> >> 10p
>> >> >> > >> >> a mile would be required to pay for the extra demand which
>> >> >> > >> >> will
>> >> >> > >> >> be
>> >> >> > >> >> created
>> >> >> > >> >> if the Government's targets on renewable energy are hit.
>>
>> >> >> > >> >> The Climate Change Committee has said that 1.7 million
>> >> >> > >> >> electric
>> >> >> > >> >> cars
>> >> >> > >> >> should
>> >> >> > >> >> be on Britain's roads by 2020. " End quote.
>>
>> >> >> > >> >> So which is it to be, more electric vehicles and more power
>> >> >> > >> >> stations;
>> >> >> > >> >> or,
>> >> >> > >> >> carry on as we are?
>>
>> >> >> > >> > No, just stop travelling and consuming so much per capita.
>> >> >> > >> > Too
>> >> >> > >> > many
>> >> >> > >> > people are having it too easy and its bad for the planet and
>> >> >> > >> > bad
>> >> >> > >> > for
>> >> >> > >> > less fortunate people.
>>
>> >> >> > >> I agree Doug. But, there's just one thing I find puzzling.
>>
>> >> >> > >> Why did you buy an electric bicycle?
>>
>> >> >> > > Because I have a very painful walking disability. Even so I am
>> >> >> > > still
>> >> >> > > banned from pavements and railway platforms. Of course, I
>> >> >> > > bought
>> >> >> > > an
>> >> >> > > electric bike, instead of the more usual car for the disabled,
>> >> >> > > for
>> >> >> > > obvious reasons.
>>
>> >> >> > You already had at least one pedal cycle. Why did you think you
>> >> >> > needed
>> >> >> > an
>> >> >> > electric bike given that it increases the demand for electricity
>> >> >> > and
>> >> >> > thus
>> >> >> > contributes to the need for more power stations?
>>
>> >> >> And what aboput the environmental impact of producing and disposing
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> the batteries?
>>
>> >> > Probably no worse than a car battery or even better due to
>> >> > difference
>> >> > in size and weight. BTW, Lithium from the batteries can be
>> >> > reclaimed.
>>
>> >> But if people didn't insist on buying such frivolous items such as
>> >> battery
>> >> powered bicycles then the question of disposal doesn't arise does it
>> >> Doug?
>>
>> >> There is also the question of the effect on the people and localities
>> >> from
>> >> where the ore is mined. Do you have any idea of the devastation being
>> >> caused
>> >> in those places Doug and that they are already running out and
>> >> alternative
>> >> sites will have to be found?
>>
>> > You are obviously ill informed, as usual.
>>
>> > "...The largest reserve base of lithium is in the Salar de Uyuni area
>> > of Bolivia, which has 5.4 million tons. US Geological Survey,
>> > estimates of the production and reserves of lithium in metric tons by
>> > country are in the table. [29][39]
>>
>> > Contrary to the USGS data in the table, other estimates put Chile's
>> > reserve base at 7,520,000 metric tons of lithium, and Argentina's at
>> > 6,000,000 metric tons.[40].
>>
>> > On June 13, 2010, the New York Times reported that "Just this month,
>> > American geologists working with the Pentagon team have been
>> > conducting ground surveys on dry salt lakes in western Afghanistan
>> > where they believe there are large deposits of lithium..."
>>
>> > That could explain a lot!
>>
>> As I said, it's running out and new deposits are being found, just as
>> with
>> petroleum.
>>
> Its not running out it is just that demand has increased.

Is there as much in the ground now as there was when we started mining it
Doug? If the answer is "no" then it's running out. If the answer is "yes"
then how is it being replaced?

>> >> How can you claim to be eco friendly when you buy such an unnecessary
>> >> item?
>>
>> > Because I am using an electric bike instead of a car. You of course,
>> > as a car user by choice, are definitely eco unfriendly.
>>
>> Both the manufacture of and use of electric bikes causes pollution, just
>> as
>> cars do. As pointed out previously, you are no more eco-friendly than
>> anyone
>> else Doug.
>>
> Nope. You car is responsible for very much more pollution than my
> bike, both in use and during manufacture. Why don't you just give up
> and put a stop to this blatant hypocrisy of yours?
>
It's not me that refuses to accept the consequences of my actions Doug.
That's your forte.



From: Brimstone on

"Chelsea Tractor Man" <mr.c.tractor(a)hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:oluozc6rxkhs$.1l6fcb0fsba2t$.dlg(a)40tude.net...
> On Thu, 08 Jul 2010 13:03:20 +0100, bugbear wrote:
>
>> Agreed. Cars can facilitate a wide range of enjoyable activities.
>>
>> I'm surprised to hear you make this point, since
>> you're normally anti car.
>
> Other anti car people will swear black is white to try and prove you don't
> need to carry stuff and PT will get you there fine. Doug is to be
> applauded
> for being more honest than that. He acknowleges you have to stop doing
> things like fishing, windsurfing, towing a boat, birdwatching, landscape
> photography, hang gliding, diving (I'll stop before I bore you) and
> instead
> hang about in bars, get mugged or watch TV in the stinking inner city.
>
People were doing landscape photography and painting before cars were
invented.


From: Ian Jackson on
In message <i14gmn$ed0$1(a)news.eternal-september.org>, Mike P
<privacy(a)privacy.net> writes
>Brimstone wrote:
>> "Chelsea Tractor Man" <mr.c.tractor(a)hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:876t5uxqjbl9$.kaqsd6a5o6zh$.dlg(a)40tude.net...
>>> On Thu, 8 Jul 2010 08:36:48 +0100, Mike P wrote:
>>>
>>>>> thats as good a proof as we need. I can move a loaded narrowboat
>>>>> on the end
>>>>> of a rope, I cannot keep that weight up in the air.
>>>>
>>>> It's the lift innit?
>>>>
>>>> I bet if you had a good strong wind providing some lift, you could
>>>> pull a glider on the end of a rope along in the air ;-)
>>>
>>> yes, a very small one. The power needed to push an aerofoil through
>>> the air
>>> and generate enough lift to get a narrow boat's weight off the
>>> ground is large, unlike pulling it through the water.
>>>
>> A simple test, can a horse move a glider sufficiently to generate
>> lift at walking speed?
>
>Not that simple though is it? If the horse is pulling it into a 70mph gale..
>then yes, it could.
>
But only upwind.

>You don't have that issue with a narrowboat

No. A narrowboat still works, regardless whether there's a headwind or a
tailwind (although slightly better with the latter).
--
Ian
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