From: Jeff Strickland on

"jim beam" <me(a)privacy.net> wrote in message
news:fvudnV-hwr-Z6A_WnZ2dnUVZ_rednZ2d(a)speakeasy.net...
> if you buy all this fear-mongering idiocy that electronic throttle is a
> problem, and that brakes, transmissions and ignition kill switches can all
> simultaneously fail causing a driver to lose control, it might be worth
> auto manufacturers of all stripes to adopt a slightly different
> implementation of electronic throttle [e.t.] - if not for mechanical
> reasons, but to shut the idiots up.
>
> first, lets understand e.t. functionality:
>
> 1. open the throttle when demanded
> 2. close throttle when demanded
> 3. allow "demand" to account for additional requirements like
> a. de-throttle on shifting for automatics,
> b. throttle appropriate to load at high demand [eg. full throttle at low
> rpms can choke an engine and significantly reduce output - thus
> de-throttle until revs support full open]


The functionality is even easier than that -- open the throttle plate when
the gas pedal is pressed and close the throttle plate when the gas pedal is
released. You can get bogged down in semantics if you want, but the
functiionality is really that simple Go when the pedal is pressed and stop
going when the pedal is released. At the end of the day, anything else is a
variation on pushing the pedal down or releasing the pedal so that it comes
back up.

When or why one might press or release the pedal has no bearing on the
discussion. The only thing that matters is the expecation that the car goes
faster when the pedal is pressed and stops going faster when the pedal is
held at a mid-point, and slows when the pedal is released.

When the throttle control system does those things, then it is doing its
job.








From: Jim Warman on
The cross posting sucks.. but you guys seem to like it....

Toyota is having trouble... Ford isn't (I'm reading this in a Ford NG and I
work at a Ford dealer).

Drive by wire throttle is a natural progression (if you can't see where the
future of the automobile is going - I feel sorry for you). It allows for
precise (hopefully) control of any electronic stability features, It allows
for torque limiting when appropirate... reducing the need for other traction
control measures (such as active brake booster application) when
necessary...

Fords system relies on redundancy... I'm not a Toyota tech so I can't tell
you what they do... Fords system has three inputs..(one of them is inversely
proportional). If the inputs aren't "coherent", the car will remain at
idle...

Have we seen problems with Fords drive by wire? A very few, but yes.... No
unintended accelerations have been (AFAIK) documented.


"Jeff Strickland" <crwlrjeff(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:hmu1u8$uus$1(a)news.eternal-september.org...
>
> "jim beam" <me(a)privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:fvudnV-hwr-Z6A_WnZ2dnUVZ_rednZ2d(a)speakeasy.net...
>> if you buy all this fear-mongering idiocy that electronic throttle is a
>> problem, and that brakes, transmissions and ignition kill switches can
>> all simultaneously fail causing a driver to lose control, it might be
>> worth auto manufacturers of all stripes to adopt a slightly different
>> implementation of electronic throttle [e.t.] - if not for mechanical
>> reasons, but to shut the idiots up.
>>
>> first, lets understand e.t. functionality:
>>
>> 1. open the throttle when demanded
>> 2. close throttle when demanded
>> 3. allow "demand" to account for additional requirements like
>> a. de-throttle on shifting for automatics,
>> b. throttle appropriate to load at high demand [eg. full throttle at low
>> rpms can choke an engine and significantly reduce output - thus
>> de-throttle until revs support full open]
>
>
> The functionality is even easier than that -- open the throttle plate when
> the gas pedal is pressed and close the throttle plate when the gas pedal
> is released. You can get bogged down in semantics if you want, but the
> functiionality is really that simple Go when the pedal is pressed and stop
> going when the pedal is released. At the end of the day, anything else is
> a variation on pushing the pedal down or releasing the pedal so that it
> comes back up.
>
> When or why one might press or release the pedal has no bearing on the
> discussion. The only thing that matters is the expecation that the car
> goes faster when the pedal is pressed and stops going faster when the
> pedal is held at a mid-point, and slows when the pedal is released.
>
> When the throttle control system does those things, then it is doing its
> job.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


From: jim beam on
On 03/06/2010 11:48 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
>
> "Jim Warman" <mechanic(a)telusplanet.net> wrote
>> Drive by wire throttle is a natural progression (if you can't see
>> where the future of the automobile is going - I feel sorry for you).
>> It allows for precise (hopefully) control of any electronic stability
>> features, It allows for torque limiting when appropirate... reducing
>> the need for other traction control measures (such as active brake
>> booster application) when necessary...
>>
>> Fords system relies on redundancy... I'm not a Toyota tech so I can't
>> tell you what they do... Fords system has three inputs..(one of them
>> is inversely proportional). If the inputs aren't "coherent", the car
>> will remain at idle...
>
> Drive by wire is certainly a natural progression. What failed is two
> things. One is the Toyota system (whatever that was),

really? has that been demonstrated yet? i see lots of speculation from
idiots that don't know what the heck they're talking about, and loads of
astroturf from people with a stake in forcing a negative outcome, but
i've yet to see any real evidence of this.


> and driver
> training.

abso-freakin-lutely.


> Emergencies do happen and a driver should be competent enough
> to shift into neutral.

or stomp the brakes - which are three times more powerful than the
engine, or even hit the "off" button.


> Fail safe and redundancy should be part of any
> throttle system, but even that can fail, as have the simplest of
> mechanical systems.

indeed. statistically, mechanical throttles are much more unreliable.
but it appears that we need a system that removes the ability of idiots
to speculate about the "black box" they don't understand.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum
From: jim beam on
On 03/06/2010 09:03 AM, Jeff Strickland wrote:
> "jim beam"<me(a)privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:fvudnV-hwr-Z6A_WnZ2dnUVZ_rednZ2d(a)speakeasy.net...
>> if you buy all this fear-mongering idiocy that electronic throttle is a
>> problem, and that brakes, transmissions and ignition kill switches can all
>> simultaneously fail causing a driver to lose control, it might be worth
>> auto manufacturers of all stripes to adopt a slightly different
>> implementation of electronic throttle [e.t.] - if not for mechanical
>> reasons, but to shut the idiots up.
>>
>> first, lets understand e.t. functionality:
>>
>> 1. open the throttle when demanded
>> 2. close throttle when demanded
>> 3. allow "demand" to account for additional requirements like
>> a. de-throttle on shifting for automatics,
>> b. throttle appropriate to load at high demand [eg. full throttle at low
>> rpms can choke an engine and significantly reduce output - thus
>> de-throttle until revs support full open]
>
>
> The functionality is even easier than that -- open the throttle plate when
> the gas pedal is pressed and close the throttle plate when the gas pedal is
> released. You can get bogged down in semantics if you want, but the
> functiionality is really that simple Go when the pedal is pressed and stop
> going when the pedal is released. At the end of the day, anything else is a
> variation on pushing the pedal down or releasing the pedal so that it comes
> back up.

yeah, that meets conditions 3.a & 3.b. oh, wait, no it doesn't.


>
> When or why one might press or release the pedal has no bearing on the
> discussion. The only thing that matters is the expecation that the car goes
> faster when the pedal is pressed and stops going faster when the pedal is
> held at a mid-point, and slows when the pedal is released.
>
> When the throttle control system does those things, then it is doing its
> job.

why is it that people that don't know what they're talking about insist
on having "opinions"?


--
nomina rutrum rutrum
From: Cameo on
"Jim Warman" <mechanic(a)telusplanet.net> wrote:
>
> Have we seen problems with Fords drive by wire? A very few, but
> yes.... No unintended accelerations have been (AFAIK) documented.

Have we seen problems with Toyota outside of the US? Are they making
different cars for other markets?