for the guys that are into recreational oil changing...
in [Technical]
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From: jim on 5 Apr 2010 10:59 jim beam wrote: > > On 04/05/2010 05:53 AM, jim wrote: > > > > > > jim beam wrote: > >> > >> On 04/04/2010 05:31 PM, jim wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> Bob Jones wrote: > >>> > >>>>> based on oil analysis, i have this: > >>>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024(a)N00/4291579733/ > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> Send it to Honda. May be they will rewrite the manual based on your > >>>> findings. > >>> > >>> Maybe the scored cam lobe in that picture will really impress Honda. > >> > >> wow, someone actually noticed!!! 10 points. > >> > >> that cam lobe got marked when i did the head gasket in a hurry and > >> didn't clean up - it was grit during reassembly and it's been that way > >> for 51k miles now. > > > > > > That is not fact it is simply the story you cooked up. > > sorry buddy, is is fact - i personally did the work that caused that > marking, witnessed the condition of the cam before the work, witnessed > the grit that was stuck on the cam lobes by oil film, and the condition > immediately after start-up - which is just like you see now. So? >i > assembled the motor in spite of the fact that it was going to be damaged > by the grit because i was in a hurry and was thinking i'd get rid of > this motor anyway. all it had to do was last one weekend. So what? I mean, it makes you look like an idiot, but other than that it doesn't contradict what I said. > > whoops, does that expose your denial and ignorance? [rhetorical] > > > Regardless of > > what may or may not have happened to your particular engine, it is not > > uncommon to see this sort of engine damage happen to someone who > > changes oil at 10000 miles and experiences a head gasket leak. > > more bullshit. cam lobes do wear and score, but you can't see this cam > up close like i can, and the fine surface detail is completely different > from simple wear and lubrication failure. In your world everything is simple - simple to the point of being ridiculous. > > > > > Basically what happens is the sudden introduction of a small amount of > > antifreeze into the oil will overwhelm the additives in the oil that are > > designed to hold small particles of dirt in suspension. When these tiny > > particles that usually do no harm are no longer capable of being held in > > suspension, they will agglomerate into larger particles. That is, the > > tiny particles will be attracted to each other and form into larger > > masses. The damage those larger particles (before they reach the oil > > filter) can do looks exactly like the score marks on your cam. > > bullshit. the reality is that if you have antifreeze in the coolant, > [which mine never had btw, quite apart from the fact that the cam was > not scored before i gritted it] you interrupt the oil film continuity > and thus the hydrodynamic separation. Clean and fresh oil will absorb more antifreeze without causing damage than dirty oil will. > particularly on cams at low > speeds. but the surface features of such damage are that of scuffing > and surface tearing - classic lube failure. mine is that of hard > particle abrasion - very obvious difference. i'd invite you over to > inspect personally, but i don't think your objective is that of discovery As I said whether or not your story about that particular engine and that particular cam is factual is quite irrelevant. That picture shows exactly what damage from mixing a small amount of antifreeze with dirty engine oil can look like. The particles of dirt that form in the oil can cause scratch marks that look just exactly like that. Won't happen if the oil is clean. > > you really have to learn not to bullshit about stuff you don't know. or > not to deny reality when it's presented to you with history and photo > evidence. You seem to be of the impression that nobody has noticed all the lies that you have been caught telling. You seem to be laboring under the impression that you are like the Pope and just because you say it there will be others who will automatically accept it is true. > > > > > > > > >> as you know if you have experience of this stuff, > >> for that surface with those same marks to persist this long, without > >> being scuffed off as normally happens, is a truly extraordinary > >> testament to a superior lubricant. A scratched cam lobe is testimony to superior lubrication in a world where the flying pigs and pink elephants have taken over.
From: jim beam on 5 Apr 2010 11:04 On 04/05/2010 07:48 AM, dr_jeff wrote: > jim beam wrote: >> On 04/05/2010 05:53 AM, jim wrote: >>> >>> >>> jim beam wrote: >>>> >>>> On 04/04/2010 05:31 PM, jim wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Bob Jones wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>> based on oil analysis, i have this: >>>>>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024(a)N00/4291579733/ >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Send it to Honda. May be they will rewrite the manual based on your >>>>>> findings. >>>>> >>>>> Maybe the scored cam lobe in that picture will really impress Honda. >>>> >>>> wow, someone actually noticed!!! 10 points. >>>> >>>> that cam lobe got marked when i did the head gasket in a hurry and >>>> didn't clean up - it was grit during reassembly and it's been that way >>>> for 51k miles now. >>> >>> >>> That is not fact it is simply the story you cooked up. >> >> sorry buddy, is is fact - i personally did the work that caused that >> marking, witnessed the condition of the cam before the work, witnessed >> the grit that was stuck on the cam lobes by oil film, and the >> condition immediately after start-up - which is just like you see now. >> i assembled the motor in spite of the fact that it was going to be >> damaged by the grit because i was in a hurry and was thinking i'd get >> rid of this motor anyway. all it had to do was last one weekend. >> >> whoops, does that expose your denial and ignorance? [rhetorical] >> >> >>> Regardless of >>> what may or may not have happened to your particular engine, it is not >>> uncommon to see this sort of engine damage happen to someone who >>> changes oil at 10000 miles and experiences a head gasket leak. >> >> more bullshit. cam lobes do wear and score, but you can't see this cam >> up close like i can, and the fine surface detail is completely >> different from simple wear and lubrication failure. >> >> >>> >>> Basically what happens is the sudden introduction of a small amount of >>> antifreeze into the oil will overwhelm the additives in the oil that are >>> designed to hold small particles of dirt in suspension. When these tiny >>> particles that usually do no harm are no longer capable of being held in >>> suspension, they will agglomerate into larger particles. That is, the >>> tiny particles will be attracted to each other and form into larger >>> masses. The damage those larger particles (before they reach the oil >>> filter) can do looks exactly like the score marks on your cam. >> >> bullshit. the reality is that if you have antifreeze in the coolant, >> [which mine never had btw, quite apart from the fact that the cam was >> not scored before i gritted it] you interrupt the oil film continuity >> and thus the hydrodynamic separation. > > <start sarcasm> > > You never put antifreeze in the coolant? That's odd. Where do you put > antifreeze? > > How does antifreeze in the coolant interrupt the oil film? I could see > that if antifreeze were in the oil, but in the coolant? > > </end sarcasm> > > Sorry, couldn't resist? well spotted. > > How does antifreeze interrupt the oil film? it physically breaks it up. > Does it act like a soap, > dissolving it? I imagine alcohol or hand sanitizer (which 60% ethanol) > does the same thing. Just like soap disrupts the oil film or whatever on > my hands when I wash after checking the oil? this is how soaps work. http://chemistry.about.com/od/cleanerchemistry/a/how-soap-cleans.htm > > Jeff > >> particularly on cams at low speeds. but the surface features of such >> damage are that of scuffing and surface tearing - classic lube >> failure. mine is that of hard particle abrasion - very obvious >> difference. i'd invite you over to inspect personally, but i don't >> think your objective is that of discovery >> >> >>> >>> -jim >> >> you really have to learn not to bullshit about stuff you don't know. >> or not to deny reality when it's presented to you with history and >> photo evidence. >> >> >>> >>> >>> >>>> as you know if you have experience of this stuff, >>>> for that surface with those same marks to persist this long, without >>>> being scuffed off as normally happens, is a truly extraordinary >>>> testament to a superior lubricant. >>>> >>>> google this group for a longer write-up i posted a while ago. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> nomina rutrum rutrum >> >> -- nomina rutrum rutrum
From: jim beam on 5 Apr 2010 11:19 On 04/05/2010 07:59 AM, jim wrote: > > > jim beam wrote: >> >> On 04/05/2010 05:53 AM, jim wrote: >>> >>> >>> jim beam wrote: >>>> >>>> On 04/04/2010 05:31 PM, jim wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Bob Jones wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>> based on oil analysis, i have this: >>>>>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024(a)N00/4291579733/ >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Send it to Honda. May be they will rewrite the manual based on your >>>>>> findings. >>>>> >>>>> Maybe the scored cam lobe in that picture will really impress Honda. >>>> >>>> wow, someone actually noticed!!! 10 points. >>>> >>>> that cam lobe got marked when i did the head gasket in a hurry and >>>> didn't clean up - it was grit during reassembly and it's been that way >>>> for 51k miles now. >>> >>> >>> That is not fact it is simply the story you cooked up. >> >> sorry buddy, is is fact - i personally did the work that caused that >> marking, witnessed the condition of the cam before the work, witnessed >> the grit that was stuck on the cam lobes by oil film, and the condition >> immediately after start-up - which is just like you see now. > > > So? eh? can't you just admit the facts? [rhetorical] > > >> i >> assembled the motor in spite of the fact that it was going to be damaged >> by the grit because i was in a hurry and was thinking i'd get rid of >> this motor anyway. all it had to do was last one weekend. > > So what? > I mean, it makes you look like an idiot, but other than that it doesn't > contradict what I said. yes it does contradict what you said. you were supposing this was typical lube failure and wear. it's not. > >> >> whoops, does that expose your denial and ignorance? [rhetorical] >> >>> Regardless of >>> what may or may not have happened to your particular engine, it is not >>> uncommon to see this sort of engine damage happen to someone who >>> changes oil at 10000 miles and experiences a head gasket leak. >> >> more bullshit. cam lobes do wear and score, but you can't see this cam >> up close like i can, and the fine surface detail is completely different >> from simple wear and lubrication failure. > > In your world everything is simple - simple to the point of being > ridiculous. yeah, right - something that contradicts your bullshit supposition and ignorance is ridiculous... > > > >> >>> >>> Basically what happens is the sudden introduction of a small amount of >>> antifreeze into the oil will overwhelm the additives in the oil that are >>> designed to hold small particles of dirt in suspension. When these tiny >>> particles that usually do no harm are no longer capable of being held in >>> suspension, they will agglomerate into larger particles. That is, the >>> tiny particles will be attracted to each other and form into larger >>> masses. The damage those larger particles (before they reach the oil >>> filter) can do looks exactly like the score marks on your cam. >> >> bullshit. the reality is that if you have antifreeze in the coolant, >> [which mine never had btw, quite apart from the fact that the cam was >> not scored before i gritted it] you interrupt the oil film continuity >> and thus the hydrodynamic separation. > > Clean and fresh oil will absorb more antifreeze without causing damage > than dirty oil will. eh? are you trying to deny your mistake in assuming the wrong wear mechanism??? > >> particularly on cams at low >> speeds. but the surface features of such damage are that of scuffing >> and surface tearing - classic lube failure. mine is that of hard >> particle abrasion - very obvious difference. i'd invite you over to >> inspect personally, but i don't think your objective is that of discovery > > As I said whether or not your story about that particular engine and > that particular cam is factual is quite irrelevant. it absolutely is relevant. you presumed an entirely different mechanism than reality. just like your "particle agglomeration" bullshit. > That picture shows > exactly what damage from mixing a small amount of antifreeze with dirty > engine oil can look like. no it doesn't. and to say it does is absolutely ridiculous when you're working from an out-of-focus photo. it's even more ridiculous when you've been told the history of how it arose! > The particles of dirt that form in the oil can > cause scratch marks that look just exactly like that. Won't happen if > the oil is clean. bullshit. hard particles don't make it past the filter [ignoring of course that your "antifreeze agglomeration" doesn't exist]. water particles however interrupt the oil film and thus the hydrodynamic layer and allow direct metal-to-metal contact. real freakin' simple. > > >> >> you really have to learn not to bullshit about stuff you don't know. or >> not to deny reality when it's presented to you with history and photo >> evidence. > > You seem to be of the impression that nobody has noticed all the lies > that you have been caught telling. You seem to be laboring under the > impression that you are like the Pope and just because you say it there > will be others who will automatically accept it is true. wow dude, you really have a reality/ignorance problem. and it's sad to see an individual that can't tell the difference between fact and bullshit so pathetically cling to their mistakes, fabrications and delusions. > > >> >>> >>> >>> >>>> as you know if you have experience of this stuff, >>>> for that surface with those same marks to persist this long, without >>>> being scuffed off as normally happens, is a truly extraordinary >>>> testament to a superior lubricant. > > A scratched cam lobe is testimony to superior lubrication in a world > where the flying pigs and pink elephants have taken over. idiot. the fact that hard particle scratching /has not been worn off/ is testimony. but you're too ignorant of the facts and too closed-minded to reality to understand that. -- nomina rutrum rutrum
From: Michael on 5 Apr 2010 11:59 On Apr 3, 10:08 am, jim beam <m...(a)privacy.net> wrote: > On 04/01/2010 03:32 PM, Michael wrote: > > > > > On Apr 1, 3:06 pm, n...(a)wt.net wrote: > >> On Apr 1, 1:56 pm, Michael<mrdarr...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > >>> On Mar 29, 5:41 pm, jim beam<m...(a)privacy.net> wrote: > > >>>>http://www.dtsc.ca.gov/TechnologyDevelopment/OPPTD_FLY_High-Efficienc.... > > >>>> shock, horror, they used oil analysis to arrive at these recommendations! > > >>>> -- > >>>> nomina rutrum rutrum > > >>> Interesting point: "The HE filters used in this study claimed > >>> filtration of particles to 1-2 [microns], much better than standard > >>> filters of 30-50 [microns]. Using standard filters is one reason that > >>> motor oil needs to be changed; it gets dirty with small particles > >>> which results in engine wear. In this regard, standard filters have > >>> not improved over the years compared to significant improvements in > >>> motor oil quality. The oil change interval set in warranties is a > >>> result of standard filters being the limiting factor, not the motor > >>> oil quality. Hence, higher quality filters will help to extend motor > >>> oil life to its full potential." > > >> The smaller the particle the filter traps, the quicker it is going to > >> clog up. > >> Also, until you get to a point of saturation, the size of the > >> particles missed > >> by a "standard" filter are not large enough to do much engine wear. > >> I'm fairly anal about my vehicle, but I don't use filters that trap > >> very fine > >> particles. I use regular old standard filters. They are less prone to > >> being > >> clogged. And if that happens the bypass kicks in and you have no > >> filtering at all. > > >>> This raises the question: would it be safe to keep engine oil for > >>> 10,000 miles if you replace JUST the oil filter every 5,000 miles? > > >> It would depend on the service. If it's all highway miles, maybe.. > >> If not, pretty risky.. :( > > >>> Is an HE filter necessary? Oil analysis comparisons of the HE Fram X2 > >>> filter vs. a normal CarQuest filter would have been nice. > > >> I think it's a waste of money, and also not the greatest idea as I > >> have already touched on. > > >>> Maybe I can do an experiment with my '96 Camry (176k miles). For my > >>> wife's car, the 5,000 mile oil change will remain... > > >> If your Camry has 176k miles on it, you are probably doing something > >> right. Why change? :/ > > >> Myself, I use regular standard filters, half decent oil, "castrol > >> syntec blend", > >> and I change it every 5k miles like the manual and the blinky light > >> on > >> the dashboard says. I'm not a fan of "extended oil change skeds". > >> The purpose of changing the oil and filter is to remove the dirt, > >> acids, > >> moisture, and whatever else, and to replenish the additives in the > >> oil. > >> I'm not going much past 5k in any of my vehicles, and I don't care > >> what anyone thinks about it. My older trucks actually get dirtier > >> after 5k miles than my newer Corolla. It's so clean burning it is > >> really > >> not that bad after 5k.. But I change it anyway. Cheap insurance. > >> I don't use synth blend in the trucks though.. Just regular dino oil.. > >> I only use the synth blend in the Corolla as extra insurance against > >> the dreaded gelling problem. Again, the extra cost is cheap insurance > >> the way I see it. > > > Ok, thanks for the info. Good points all around. Maybe the car can > > go longer on multiple filters, but 5k miles is long enough. My use > > might even qualify as "severe" come to think of it... mixed city/ > > highway driving. > > > Was using Castrol regular 10W-30, thinking of putting in regular Mobil > > 5W-30 for better fuel economy next change due in ~900 miles. > > > Thanks, > > > Michael > > ok, if mobil will go 20k miles per actual usage:http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024(a)N00/4291579733/ > > will you still change it at 5k? > > -- > nomina rutrum rutrum I was thinking of extending the interval, but when I looked for an oil change interval in my manual I couldn't find one (!?) Haynes specifies a 3000 mile interval for both the '96 and '99. Funny how Mobil doesn't say extended intervals are ok... I guess I'll just replace oil and filter at 5k...
From: jim on 5 Apr 2010 11:59
dr_jeff wrote: > > How does antifreeze interrupt the oil film? Does it act like a soap, > dissolving it? Actually the detergents and dispersants "act like soap" and have the effect of keeping all sorts of stuff in solution in the oil - including antifreeze. This works as long as the additives aren't overwhelmed with too much "stuff". Acts like soap means its similar but a bit different. In the case of washing your hands the solvent is the water. Oil is a different type of solvent, different soap, but the same general idea. >I imagine alcohol or hand sanitizer (which 60% ethanol) > does the same thing. Just like soap disrupts the oil film or whatever on > my hands when I wash after checking the oil? > > Jeff > > > particularly on cams at low > > speeds. but the surface features of such damage are that of scuffing > > and surface tearing - classic lube failure. mine is that of hard > > particle abrasion - very obvious difference. i'd invite you over to > > inspect personally, but i don't think your objective is that of discovery > > > > > >> > >> -jim > > > > you really have to learn not to bullshit about stuff you don't know. or > > not to deny reality when it's presented to you with history and photo > > evidence. > > > > > >> > >> > >> > >>> as you know if you have experience of this stuff, > >>> for that surface with those same marks to persist this long, without > >>> being scuffed off as normally happens, is a truly extraordinary > >>> testament to a superior lubricant. > >>> > >>> google this group for a longer write-up i posted a while ago. > >>> > >>> -- > >>> nomina rutrum rutrum > > > > |