gas over $4 is here! is $5 gas far behind ?
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From: Joe the Aroma on 20 May 2007 21:14 "Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message news:4650EA8B.C3F5EE8B(a)hotmail.com... > > > "Bill Bonde ( 'Hi ho' )" wrote: > >> Eeyore wrote: >> > >> > Are Boeing's pork-barrel military contracts a subsidy ? >> >> Boeing's military contracts are in its military aircraft division. > > Obfuscation. > > I'll take that as a "Yes, military contracts are a (hidden) subsidy". > > Graham Errr, no.
From: Jeffrey Turner on 20 May 2007 21:14 Fred G. Mackey wrote: > Jeffrey Turner wrote: >> Fred G. Mackey wrote: >>> Jeffrey Turner wrote: >>>> Bill Bonde ( 'Hi ho' ) wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> We separate the owners of the company from the workers. They can be >>>>> the >>>>> same people but they are separated for purposes of deciding who >>>>> gets to >>>>> control what the company does. >>>> >>>> But they don't always have the same interests, why shouldn't they >>>> implement democracy? >>> >>> Because they don't always have the same interests. >> >> That's why we'll have to send the military to bring them democracy. > > It sounds like you want to bring them socialism. You one of them democracy-hating terrorist types? --Jeff -- We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob. --Franklin D. Roosevelt
From: Jeffrey Turner on 20 May 2007 21:17 Bill Bonde ( 'Hi ho' ) wrote: > > Jeffrey Turner wrote: > >>Bill Bonde ( 'Hi ho' ) wrote: >> >>>Jeffrey Turner wrote: >>> >>>>Eeyore wrote: >>>> >>>>>Jeffrey Turner wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Losing your job to someone who'll work for half the wages *so* often >>>>>>leads to prosperity. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Why stop at half the wages. China and India can do it for far far less. >>>> >>>>It just as clearly applies to Chinese workers eventually losing their >>>>jobs to people in Burma or Nigeria thanks to "free trade." >>> >>>What's interesting, because that did happen already in Japan, is that >>>eventually you run out of dirt poor people to shift the work to and then >>>every group on the planet is suddenly better off. The people of Japan >>>aren't in a state like the people of Nigeria even though the people of >>>the worse world took their old jobs. >> >>But Japan never subjected itself to "free market" principles. > > Within Japan, you are correct the economy is pretty controlled. And > you'll notice they've had serious problems. Not as serious as "free trade" countries like Mexico and Peru. Argentina had so much "free market" they had to close the banks. --Jeff -- We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob. --Franklin D. Roosevelt
From: Free Lunch on 20 May 2007 21:19 On Sun, 20 May 2007 17:23:36 -0700, in misc.transport.road "Bill Bonde ( 'Hi ho' )" <tributyltinpaint(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote in <4650E688.D407492A(a)yahoo.co.uk>: > > >Free Lunch wrote: >> >> On Sun, 20 May 2007 11:24:23 -0700, in misc.transport.road >> "Bill Bonde ( 'Hi ho' )" <tributyltinpaint(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote in >> <46509257.BC4845BA(a)yahoo.co.uk>: >> > >> > >> >Jeffrey Turner wrote: >> >> >> >> Eeyore wrote: >> >> > "Bill Bonde ( 'Hi ho' )" wrote: >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >>Boeing competes for its military contract sales. >> >> > >> >> > Airbus describes them as 'pork barrel contracts'. >> >> >> >> Boeing has congressmembers on payroll, so they'll get contracts. >> >> It took a huge dust-up in 2002 (?) to keep the gov't from leasing >> >> tanker planes from Boeing when it was *much* cheaper to buy them. >> >> >> >The idea was to pay for them over a number of years in a lease >> >arrangement and reduce the upfront costs. >> >> How could Boeing offer better rates than the US Treasury can borrow? >> That was the problem. >> >The idea was to make the programme seem lower cost upfront. I suspect >that the accounting if the money is borrowed by the government looks >different. Yes, government accounting conflates capital and operating budgets. In real life, if you sell a substantial asset to pay for other expenses, you don't think of it as having a balanced budget. If you have a business which uses Generally Accepted Accounting Principals and you sign a lease that requires you to pay at least 80% of the value of the item, you have to account for it as a purchase and the lease as borrowing. Governments ignore such things, part of the reason that our national debt is far worse than just the amount owed to lenders.
From: Joe the Aroma on 20 May 2007 21:22
"Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message news:4650EE14.864B34C1(a)hotmail.com... > > > "Bill Bonde ( 'Hi ho' )" wrote: > >> Eeyore wrote: >> > Joe the Aroma wrote: >> > >> > > A government loan is a subsidy. >> > >> > A loan is a loan. >> > >> That's a remarkably reflexive comment, it is. You should consider that a >> loan at a lower than market rate by the government is by definition a >> subsidy. > > Not if the government gets something additional in return. Such as > guaranteed > employment and additional tax revenue. > > Graham It's all opinion of course, but IMO when the risk of the loan is transferred from a bank or the company to the taxpayers, it's a subsidy. |