Tyre sealant stuff - which one?
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From: DanB on 1 Aug 2008 10:58 "Burgerman" <burgerman(a)ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:kWAkk.104589$Lc6.89850(a)newsfe18.ams2... > > > Yep my gran wouldnt notice if you stole the whole wheel. I on the other > hand certainly can, even on the rear. As could most on this group I would > hope... > Yea the Vee was very sensitive to tyre pressures, as was the 206. Well, when I say, very sensitive, I noticed when one was 5 psi out - so whether that's me or the car, who knows. It was a car I knew very well though. I've yet to have a tyre lose any noticeable PSI on the R27. I haven't felt it, and the pressures were actually checked last week and they were all still 30 to 32 psi. -- Dan Clio R27 F1 #65
From: David Hearn on 1 Aug 2008 12:19 Burgerman wrote: > "David Hearn" <dave(a)NOswampieSPAM.org.uk> wrote in message > news:4892E428.7050901(a)NOswampieSPAM.org.uk... >> Burgerman wrote: >>> "David Hearn" <dave(a)NOswampieSPAM.org.uk> wrote in message >>> news:6fg1erFb8pr5U1(a)mid.individual.net... >>>> Burgerman wrote: >>>>> "DanB" <iridiumdan(a)googlemail.com> wrote in message >>>>> news:6fceqmFaqqrnU1(a)mid.individual.net... >>>>>> "John" <x(a)y.z> wrote in message >>>>>> news:teadndS8iredHw3VnZ2dnUVZ8tninZ2d(a)bt.com... >>>>>>> I've just had my car converted to dual fuel and now have a >>>>>>> 67-litre LPG tank in the spare wheel well instead of a spare >>>>>>> wheel, so can anyone recommend a good tyre sealant? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Each of the tyres is in really good condition with between 6 and >>>>>>> 7mm tread depth and the rims are alloys - just in case that makes >>>>>>> any difference. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> My car never came with a spare, I have 2 cans of Renault 'Tyre >>>>>> Repair Aerosol" - no idea if it's any good mind you :-) >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Dan >>>>>> Clio R27 F1 #65 >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I stuck a set of these on. Problem solved. No noticible difference >>>>> in ride once the pressure was reduced a few psi from stock. >>>>> Technically you need tyre pressure monitors too but thats up to you. >>>> >>>> No, it's not up to you. They should not be fitted to vehicles which >>>> do not have remote pressure sensors. The reason is, once a puncture >>>> has occurred, they must be treated as a temporary space saver tyre >>>> (or unmatched tyre) - i.e. 50mph/80kph max and only as a get you >>>> home type thing. In the link you sent "you can do 100 miles or so >>>> at 50 mph all the way home safely". Without remote pressure sensors >>>> you have no idea whether you have a puncture, and so could be doing >>>> 70mph or whatever. >>> >>> >>> Wrong. It is up to you. And it was up to me too! And I know all that. >>> Its easy to tell if ones a bit low just by driving it. I tried it by >>> letting 10 psi out. Feels horrible. >>> So I do not need tp sensors. You might but then thats "up to you" >>> isnt it. >>> >>> >>>> As eTyres says: "The other essential item of safety equipment for a >>>> vehicle with Run-flat tyres is a Tyre Pressure Monitoring System >>>> (TPMS). Run-flat tyres are designed to minimise the difference in >>>> ride quality when a tyre is punctured. This is especially the case >>>> with motorway driving where there is relatively little cornering. >>> >>> >>> Yep my gran wouldnt notice if you stole the whole wheel. I on the >>> other hand certainly can, even on the rear. As could most on this >>> group I would hope... >>> >>> For this reason it >>>> is difficult to determine that a tyre has lost pressure or is >>>> operating in zero pressure conditions. Should the driver not be >>>> aware of a loss of pressure they may well exceed the safety limits >>>> imposed by the manufacturer. This would eventually cause the tyre to >>>> fail. Run-flat tyres are not indestructible!" >>>> <http://www.etyres.co.uk/run-flat-tyres> >>>> >>>> D >>> >>> As I said your choice! >>> I can easily tell when 10 psi is missing. And you can run a NON run >>> flat at 10 psi down on a motorway at 70 with little likelyhood of a >>> problem. Ask my mum she never checks tyre pressures and they are >>> always half flat... Now she needs tyre pressure monitors on ordinary >>> tyres. I or most of this group dont. Just a bit of "feel" and awareness. >> >> Whether you can feel it or not - manufacturers of the tyres say you >> must not do this. > > Because they dont know if its going to be you, me or my mum driving it. > And they are scared or getting sued. > > > >> In fact, Michelin say: "This Self Supporting Tyre (SST) technology >> should only be used on vehicles originally designed for this type of >> tyre. Do not fit ZP tyres on vehicles not designed for this technology." >> <http://www.michelin.co.uk/uk/front/affich.jsp?codeRubrique=20060308204909> >> > > > As above. > >> Goodyear say: "Since your tires will simply keep going after they've >> suffered pressure loss, RunOnFlat technology requires the presence of >> an on-board TPMS (Tire Pressure Monitoring System) that lets you know >> that your tire requires servicing. Without such a system, you would >> have no way of knowing that your tire had suffered a puncture or a >> blow out." >> <http://eu.goodyear.com/home_en/tires/runonflat/> > > > Thats untrue. Its easy toi tell. At least for many. If you are my granny > then fine as I said its up to you. The tyre pressure monitors are cheap > anyway. I dont need one. > >> >> Continental say: "SSR tyres may only be fitted to vehicles equipped >> with a tyre pressure monitoring system" >> <http://www.conti-online.com/generator/www/uk/en/continental/portal/general/innovation/ssr_tyres_en.html> >> > > > Of course they do But as I say most people that are "aware" and have a > good sense of "feel" and can tell if you have a flat one easily. But > maybe my mum couldnt. > > >> Only a few days ago there was discussion on here about asymmetric >> tyres, and how using them fitted the wrong way around is dangerous, >> and liable for your insurer to refuse a claim. > > > Thats also debatable. Fitting asymmetric tyres incorrectly is an automatic MOT failure, so I'm not sure how debatable it is. "f. a tyre not fitted in compliance with the manufacturers sidewall instruction, eg an asymmetric tyre with a sidewall marked �outer� fitted with the marking to the inner side of the wheel" <http://www.motuk.co.uk/manual_410.htm> >> Likewise, I cannot see how this is >> any different. If you had an accident, and there was any question >> over the state of your tyres contributing to the accident and your >> insurer discovered you were using tyres in a method which was contrary >> to the manufacturer's requirements, I would expect they would fight >> the claim. > > > That would only stand up in court if the tyre was found to be > substantially under inflated. And that would be true for NON run flat > tyres too! I know I'd prefer not to be in a position where I have to fight my insurer in court. Particularly, as any "legal cover" on my insurance probably doesn't cover me against them! "You should never retrofit a runflat tyre to a vehicle without a TPMS" RoSPA <http://www.rospa.com/RoadSafety/info/runflat_tyres.pdf> European Tyre and Rim Technical Organisation draft regulations for the UN: "Moreover it shall be clearly specified by a new statement in paragraph 5.1 that vehicles can be equipped with a �run-flat system� only if they are also equipped with an effective tyre pressure monitoring system and a runflat monitoring system." <http://www.unece.org/trans/doc/2003/wp29grrf/TRANS-WP29-GRRF-53-02e.pdf> OICA (International Organisation of Motor Vehicle Manufacturers) suggested requirement: "If the vehicle is equipped with Run-Flat Tyres, then a signal warning the driver of the runflat condition is mandatory" <http://www.unece.org/trans/doc/2007/wp29grrf/ECE-TRANS-WP29-GRRF-61-inf10e.pdf> I'm sure that an insurer would claim that it's an undeclared modification to the vehicle, which if they had been informed of it, would have refused cover. The specification of the tyres significantly differ from those which were originally fitted, or recommended for the vehicle. The tyre manufacturer would side with the insurer in this instance of fitting run-flat tyres to a vehicle which does not have a pressure monitoring system (see quote above). I would also expect that the vehicle manufacturer would also do the same (see quote above from the OICA). Based on that, I could see they would legitimately say that you were not covered - particularly if the accident had *any* question that the tyres could have influenced the ability to stop/avoid. D
From: Burgerman on 1 Aug 2008 16:10
"David Hearn" <dave(a)NOswampieSPAM.org.uk> wrote in message news:6fgrbnFbkvrlU1(a)mid.individual.net... > Burgerman wrote: >> "David Hearn" <dave(a)NOswampieSPAM.org.uk> wrote in message >> news:4892E428.7050901(a)NOswampieSPAM.org.uk... >>> Burgerman wrote: >>>> "David Hearn" <dave(a)NOswampieSPAM.org.uk> wrote in message >>>> news:6fg1erFb8pr5U1(a)mid.individual.net... >>>>> Burgerman wrote: >>>>>> "DanB" <iridiumdan(a)googlemail.com> wrote in message >>>>>> news:6fceqmFaqqrnU1(a)mid.individual.net... >>>>>>> "John" <x(a)y.z> wrote in message >>>>>>> news:teadndS8iredHw3VnZ2dnUVZ8tninZ2d(a)bt.com... >>>>>>>> I've just had my car converted to dual fuel and now have a 67-litre >>>>>>>> LPG tank in the spare wheel well instead of a spare wheel, so can >>>>>>>> anyone recommend a good tyre sealant? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Each of the tyres is in really good condition with between 6 and >>>>>>>> 7mm tread depth and the rims are alloys - just in case that makes >>>>>>>> any difference. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My car never came with a spare, I have 2 cans of Renault 'Tyre >>>>>>> Repair Aerosol" - no idea if it's any good mind you :-) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Dan >>>>>>> Clio R27 F1 #65 >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I stuck a set of these on. Problem solved. No noticible difference in >>>>>> ride once the pressure was reduced a few psi from stock. Technically >>>>>> you need tyre pressure monitors too but thats up to you. >>>>> >>>>> No, it's not up to you. They should not be fitted to vehicles which >>>>> do not have remote pressure sensors. The reason is, once a puncture >>>>> has occurred, they must be treated as a temporary space saver tyre (or >>>>> unmatched tyre) - i.e. 50mph/80kph max and only as a get you home type >>>>> thing. In the link you sent "you can do 100 miles or so at 50 mph all >>>>> the way home safely". Without remote pressure sensors you have no >>>>> idea whether you have a puncture, and so could be doing 70mph or >>>>> whatever. >>>> >>>> >>>> Wrong. It is up to you. And it was up to me too! And I know all that. >>>> Its easy to tell if ones a bit low just by driving it. I tried it by >>>> letting 10 psi out. Feels horrible. >>>> So I do not need tp sensors. You might but then thats "up to you" isnt >>>> it. >>>> >>>> >>>>> As eTyres says: "The other essential item of safety equipment for a >>>>> vehicle with Run-flat tyres is a Tyre Pressure Monitoring System >>>>> (TPMS). Run-flat tyres are designed to minimise the difference in ride >>>>> quality when a tyre is punctured. This is especially the case with >>>>> motorway driving where there is relatively little cornering. >>>> >>>> >>>> Yep my gran wouldnt notice if you stole the whole wheel. I on the other >>>> hand certainly can, even on the rear. As could most on this group I >>>> would hope... >>>> >>>> For this reason it >>>>> is difficult to determine that a tyre has lost pressure or is >>>>> operating in zero pressure conditions. Should the driver not be aware >>>>> of a loss of pressure they may well exceed the safety limits imposed >>>>> by the manufacturer. This would eventually cause the tyre to fail. >>>>> Run-flat tyres are not indestructible!" >>>>> <http://www.etyres.co.uk/run-flat-tyres> >>>>> >>>>> D >>>> >>>> As I said your choice! >>>> I can easily tell when 10 psi is missing. And you can run a NON run >>>> flat at 10 psi down on a motorway at 70 with little likelyhood of a >>>> problem. Ask my mum she never checks tyre pressures and they are always >>>> half flat... Now she needs tyre pressure monitors on ordinary tyres. I >>>> or most of this group dont. Just a bit of "feel" and awareness. >>> >>> Whether you can feel it or not - manufacturers of the tyres say you must >>> not do this. >> >> Because they dont know if its going to be you, me or my mum driving it. >> And they are scared or getting sued. >> >> >> >>> In fact, Michelin say: "This Self Supporting Tyre (SST) technology >>> should only be used on vehicles originally designed for this type of >>> tyre. Do not fit ZP tyres on vehicles not designed for this technology." >>> <http://www.michelin.co.uk/uk/front/affich.jsp?codeRubrique=20060308204909> >> >> >> As above. >> >>> Goodyear say: "Since your tires will simply keep going after they've >>> suffered pressure loss, RunOnFlat technology requires the presence of an >>> on-board TPMS (Tire Pressure Monitoring System) that lets you know that >>> your tire requires servicing. Without such a system, you would have no >>> way of knowing that your tire had suffered a puncture or a blow out." >>> <http://eu.goodyear.com/home_en/tires/runonflat/> >> >> >> Thats untrue. Its easy toi tell. At least for many. If you are my granny >> then fine as I said its up to you. The tyre pressure monitors are cheap >> anyway. I dont need one. >> >>> >>> Continental say: "SSR tyres may only be fitted to vehicles equipped with >>> a tyre pressure monitoring system" >>> <http://www.conti-online.com/generator/www/uk/en/continental/portal/general/innovation/ssr_tyres_en.html> >> >> >> Of course they do But as I say most people that are "aware" and have a >> good sense of "feel" and can tell if you have a flat one easily. But >> maybe my mum couldnt. >> >> >>> Only a few days ago there was discussion on here about asymmetric tyres, >>> and how using them fitted the wrong way around is dangerous, and liable >>> for your insurer to refuse a claim. >> >> >> Thats also debatable. > > Fitting asymmetric tyres incorrectly is an automatic MOT failure, so I'm > not sure how debatable it is. That may be so. But its rediculous since the tyres are not handed. So if you fit them correctly with the outside to the outside then they only work correctly in reverse on the left! Rules make no sense. > "f. a tyre not fitted in compliance with the manufacturers sidewall > instruction, eg an asymmetric tyre with a sidewall marked �outer� fitted > with the marking to the inner side of the wheel" > <http://www.motuk.co.uk/manual_410.htm> Yes but then you have to drive in reverse to clear water properly! > >>> Likewise, I cannot see how this is >>> any different. If you had an accident, and there was any question over >>> the state of your tyres contributing to the accident and your insurer >>> discovered you were using tyres in a method which was contrary to the >>> manufacturer's requirements, I would expect they would fight the claim. >> >> >> That would only stand up in court if the tyre was found to be >> substantially under inflated. And that would be true for NON run flat >> tyres too! > > I know I'd prefer not to be in a position where I have to fight my insurer > in court. Particularly, as any "legal cover" on my insurance probably > doesn't cover me against them! Well as I already said its your choice. I dont need safety nazis to tell me when a tyre is flat. > "You should never retrofit a runflat tyre to a vehicle without a TPMS" > RoSPA <http://www.rospa.com/RoadSafety/info/runflat_tyres.pdf> Good advice but thats all it is. You choose to fit tyre pressure monitors if you wish! > > European Tyre and Rim Technical Organisation draft regulations for the UN: > "Moreover it shall be clearly specified by a new statement in paragraph > 5.1 that vehicles can be equipped with a �run-flat system� only if they > are also equipped with an effective tyre pressure monitoring system and a > runflat monitoring system." > <http://www.unece.org/trans/doc/2003/wp29grrf/TRANS-WP29-GRRF-53-02e.pdf> > > OICA (International Organisation of Motor Vehicle Manufacturers) suggested > requirement: "If the vehicle is equipped with Run-Flat Tyres, then a > signal warning the driver of the runflat condition is mandatory" > <http://www.unece.org/trans/doc/2007/wp29grrf/ECE-TRANS-WP29-GRRF-61-inf10e.pdf> > > > I'm sure that an insurer would claim that it's an undeclared modification > to the vehicle, which if they had been informed of it, would have refused > cover. The specification of the tyres significantly differ from those > which were originally fitted, or recommended for the vehicle. Mine do anyway! They are 4 inches wider... And bigger diameter. And the suspension is modded. The tyre manufacturer would side with the insurer in this > instance of fitting run-flat tyres to a vehicle which does not have a > pressure monitoring system (see quote above). As long as the tyre was not under inflated by a serious margin then there is no reason that insurance would be invalid. Just the same as a non run flat tyre. And my tyre pressures are chosen by me anyway. Stock pressures are way too low foer the lower profile tyres I use and the tyre edges wear fast. The correct tyre pressure is one that satisfies a bunch of difficult and sometimes opposing requirements. These include comfort, (espesially for me as I have a spinal injury and drive from a wheelchair) Where harder is noisier and jolts more on bumps and may offer less grip. Load, including the number of occupants (you do change your tyre pressures when you have a full car dont you? You TPMS wont help you here. Stability, where lower or higher pressures are used to help prevent or induce understeer or oversteer. Tyre wear pattern, Where under inflated wears the edges and over inflated wears the centre. Economy where more is better and less pressure worse. Temperature build up and usage and road type. More pressure is better here which is why car manufacturers advise higher pressures on motorways and when fully loaded. Noise, lower is better for removing bump noise. Higher better for removing external noise. In winter I always choose about 15 percent less pressure on purpose. Its safer and gives more grip on salty and cold/snow etc. High temperatures on a hot motorway obviously are not an issue. Etc etc. The manufacturers guide pressure is just that. For stock tyres only as well. My own tyres have a higher load rating too so could actually be safely used at a lower pressure than stock. Each driver should be aware of a few psi change quite easily. I knowe I am. And it allows me to reach a compromise in my own pressures. A TPMS wont help here. I can detect pressure changes way before these broad range devices "warn you" and there no requirement for them in law. There isnt any such thing as a "correct" pressure as such. Especially when you consider that my wheels and tyres are not the stock OEM size by a large margin. And when you consider that a "one size fits all" tyre pressure monitor system often doesent even have any adjustment! It just warns when seriously low. Whatever pressure that might be. I would already have noticed and topped them up to where I prefer by then. I would also expect that > the vehicle manufacturer would also do the same (see quote above from the > OICA). Based on that, I could see they would legitimately say that you > were not covered - particularly if the accident had *any* question that > the tyres could have influenced the ability to stop/avoid. Rubbish. If they were underinflated by a marked amount then possibly. But that also applies (if not more!) to a non run flat! And of course driving on a completely flat runflat tyre isnt very pleasant but it is both obvious and ALLOWED by law by definition! I tried letting all the air out of a front, and then a rear. You cant really miss it! It feels flat... It wallows, and if on a front it also drags the steering... You would need to be massively ignorant to not notice. But by alkl means get a TPMS if you want. I dont need one. |