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From: DanKMTB on 2 Sep 2008 19:10
On Sep 2, 5:44 pm, Brent P <tetraethylleadREMOVET...(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 2008-09-02, N8N <njna...(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > That said, I can't imagine 120+ feeling comfortable in anything but
> > very light traffic.
>
> In Germany it's comfortable. In the US, even if done with proper lane
> discipline and no lane splitting etc... like you said, it's pretty much
> suicidal because of all the idiots out there.

A lot of things seem suicidal to others. I think there are a whole
lot of sport bike riders out there who ride like this an awful lot,
and crash very, very rarely. Even when they do crash it's usually
single-vehicle, misjudging the speed they can take a ramp (or the
unexpected sand patch mid-ramp). I don't think it's as common as one
might thing for these 120+MPH bikes to slam into other cars, and
laying a bike down hurts a whole lot less than one might think with
the proper gear.

Of all the guys I know who ride or used to ride like this, only one
hit a car. SWIM was doing triple digits on a backroad, and someone on
a cell phone pulled out without looking. He managed to get the bike
from whatever speed to about 30 before hitting the other vehicle
(while still braking so hard he was on the front wheel only) but the
car was accelerating so slowly it wasn't up to the SL yet. I've
ridden with these groups, have friends who still ride with these
groups, find the sort of riding we're tlaking about fairly commonplace
and have never heard, even third hand, of someone actually hitting
another car on the highway. Sure, it happens, but so do lightning
strikes. I don't think that type of riding by an experienced rider on
the right bike is nearly as suicidal as it may seem to many.


> >  I know there have
> > been instances where I've been coming home after dark, traveling a
> > little faster than other traffic, and a bike can appear behind me
> > between my initial mirror check and my second mirror check as I'm
> > actually moving over to pass someone.  At 80 MPH, give or take (this
> > was back before I got my current job, where they actually care about
> > my driving record) you KNOW they're haulin' the mail to be able to go
> > from beyond my horizon of visibility to close to my bumper in that
> > short amount of time (maybe 3 seconds?)
>
> Yep. Have had that happen too.  but usually it's because they've dived
> over several lanes from where my mirrors don't pick up traffic instead
> of being obscured by things like hills ;)

And if they cut all those lanes so easily to sneak into your field of
view, what makes you think they can't cut a couple more to get away
from you once they realize their intended route is being blocked.
Always have an exit stragety, or two.
From: Brent P on 2 Sep 2008 19:25
On 2008-09-02, DanKMTB(a)gmail.com <DanKMTB(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sep 2, 5:40�pm, Brent P <tetraethylleadREMOVET...(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On 2008-09-02, DanK...(a)gmail.com <DanK...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > This is going to sound stupid, and I'm going to get flamed, but what
>> > the heck - it's a slow day. �I?ve had 2 sport bikes, one of which was
>> > particularly fast and nice. �I HATED riding on the highway. �Anywhere
>> > near the SL or the flow of traffic, that is. �It does appear that
>> > people don?t see you, and some that do will just bully you out of the
>> > way, knowing you?ll move rather than die. �However, when moving
>> > substantially faster than anything else on the road, it?s not so bad.
>> > You pay attention, and don?t spend more than a second next to any
>> > vehicle. �No worries of idiots drifting into you or changing lanes
>> > into you, no worries of the texting teen not seeing you ? you
>> > basically get to treat other vehicles as stationary objects, which
>> > takes the scary aspect away. �IME riding a sport bike (mind, one
>> > that?s intended for this type of speed and not an antique or Harley ?
>> > I?m talking about bikes that are quite comfy at 150+) at twice the
>> > speed of traffic is a whole lot less unnerving than riding with
>> > traffic.
>>
>> > Commence flaming now.
>>
>> The 120mph in heavy but still doing 70mph traffic on the dan-ryan riders
>> I see coming 9 times out of ten. Anyone who has the intent to hurt one
>> of these riders has more than enough time to set up to do it.
>
> If you have the intent, probably. However, if the driver of a car has
> the _intent_ to hurt a motorcyclist, they've got a pretty good chance
> of pulling it off. Probably a lesser one if the motorcyclist is
> "hauling the mail" - since they may not see them coming and/or have
> enough time to plan or execute the intended assault.

Since I've had motorists plan to do things from annoying me to
endangering me while I'm bicycling I figured that's what you were
getting at.

>
>> I have
>> more than enough time to take up a lane location to discourage lane
>> splitting

> Or at least that lane. At high speeds they can likely just move over
> a few lanes in a second or two, getting away from you altogether.

If they aren't lane splitting me, it's not my paint and sheet metal they
damage when they screw up.

>> or at least force them to use the shoulder which they won't do
>> most of the time because of the debris.

> They won't? Most of the riders I rode with and/or know consider
> anything paved fair game, including the breakdown lane and the narrow
> shoulder on the left of the leftmost lane.

MOST OF THE TIME. I didn't say always because I've seen it. But I've
seen more slow down and wait rather than use chicago's debris strewn
shoulders.

> I've cringed watching my
> riding buddies squeeze between cars and guardrails more times than I
> can count. Granted a quick left swirve at the right moment by the car
> would squish them, but it hasn't happened to anyone I know yet. I
> figure the reasons are multiple
> -Most drivers don't really want to kill a motorcyclist.

Hmm... they act like they want to kill bicyclists. Had one idiot brush
pass me and then move his car right while still next to me on a chicago
city street. A first. I believe it was on purpose. But I was too tired
to do or say anything to him when I caught up to him so I settled for
the middle finger and then made my turn. (end of the ride, going back to
my car. 32.75 miles)

> -It happens so fast, the timing would have to be real good. I like to
> think the auto drivers that are that good are even less likely to try
> to kill a motorcyclist for speeding - that seems aunt-judyish to me,
> and I don't think she has the driving skill or reaction time

It's not for speeding. It's for being on the road and getting ahead. By
cheating I figure it could only cause more combative drivers.

> -Shell shock. Most of the time I've seen a bike at real high speeds
> split a lane, it causes a reflexive swirve _away_ from the motorcycle,
> at least for the fraction of a second it takes the bike to be past
> them and on their way.

Hmmm... hope they don't trust my reflexes. I don't even trust myself not
to do a memory-mode (bicycling) reflex to the right even if they decide
to split on the right.

> Also, sport bikes like the ones in question stop real well too. If
> they see you moving to close their intended gap, and they can't find
> another route (rare, in my experience) the bike can come down from
> 120+ to 70 in a breathtakingly short amount of time.

Which is usually what they do IME.

From: Brent P on 2 Sep 2008 19:37
On 2008-09-02, DanKMTB(a)gmail.com <DanKMTB(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sep 2, 5:44�pm, Brent P <tetraethylleadREMOVET...(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On 2008-09-02, N8N <njna...(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > That said, I can't imagine 120+ feeling comfortable in anything but
>> > very light traffic.
>>
>> In Germany it's comfortable. In the US, even if done with proper lane
>> discipline and no lane splitting etc... like you said, it's pretty much
>> suicidal because of all the idiots out there.
>
> A lot of things seem suicidal to others. I think there are a whole
> lot of sport bike riders out there who ride like this an awful lot,
> and crash very, very rarely.

In chicago these are not "sport bike riders" in any other sense than
some idiot who bought himself a sport bike. They tend to off themselves
with alarming regularity.

> Of all the guys I know who ride or used to ride like this, only one
> hit a car. SWIM was doing triple digits on a backroad, and someone on
> a cell phone pulled out without looking. He managed to get the bike
> from whatever speed to about 30 before hitting the other vehicle
> (while still braking so hard he was on the front wheel only) but the
> car was accelerating so slowly it wasn't up to the SL yet. I've
> ridden with these groups, have friends who still ride with these
> groups, find the sort of riding we're tlaking about fairly commonplace
> and have never heard, even third hand, of someone actually hitting
> another car on the highway. Sure, it happens, but so do lightning
> strikes. I don't think that type of riding by an experienced rider on
> the right bike is nearly as suicidal as it may seem to many.

But you seem to be talking about serious riders. I'm talking about the
average shirtless guy on a crotch rocket.

But there's still instances where helmeted riders off themselves:
http://www.nbc5.com/news/4519767/detail.html
"The most recent crash happened late Sunday. A 32-year-old man died
after the motorcycle he was riding rear-ended a vehicle downtown.
The man was southbound on the motorcycle at about 30 S. Lake Shore Drive
when it struck the back of a vehicle stopped in traffic around 10:30
p.m. Sunday, police said."

Further in the article:
"On Saturday, Wojcieh Chmura was riding a 2004 Yamaha motorcycle inbound
on the Kennedy Expressway when he apparently sped up between cars and
hit the brakes around 7:20 p.m. Saturday at Addison Street, Trooper
Steve Tufenkjian said.
Chmura flew over the handlebars and suffered mortal injuries."

>> Yep. Have had that happen too. �but usually it's because they've dived
>> over several lanes from where my mirrors don't pick up traffic instead
>> of being obscured by things like hills ;)

> And if they cut all those lanes so easily to sneak into your field of
> view, what makes you think they can't cut a couple more to get away
> from you once they realize their intended route is being blocked.
> Always have an exit stragety, or two.

Because such routes are usually sealed off by other traffic. The gaps
are rather fleeting except very late at night.


From: DanKMTB on 2 Sep 2008 19:40
On Sep 2, 7:25 pm, Brent P <tetraethylleadREMOVET...(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 2008-09-02, DanK...(a)gmail.com <DanK...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sep 2, 5:40 pm, Brent P <tetraethylleadREMOVET...(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> On 2008-09-02, DanK...(a)gmail.com <DanK...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> > This is going to sound stupid, and I'm going to get flamed, but what
> >> > the heck - it's a slow day.  I?ve had 2 sport bikes, one of which was
> >> > particularly fast and nice.  I HATED riding on the highway.  Anywhere
> >> > near the SL or the flow of traffic, that is.  It does appear that
> >> > people don?t see you, and some that do will just bully you out of the
> >> > way, knowing you?ll move rather than die.  However, when moving
> >> > substantially faster than anything else on the road, it?s not so bad..
> >> > You pay attention, and don?t spend more than a second next to any
> >> > vehicle.  No worries of idiots drifting into you or changing lanes
> >> > into you, no worries of the texting teen not seeing you ? you
> >> > basically get to treat other vehicles as stationary objects, which
> >> > takes the scary aspect away.  IME riding a sport bike (mind, one
> >> > that?s intended for this type of speed and not an antique or Harley ?
> >> > I?m talking about bikes that are quite comfy at 150+) at twice the
> >> > speed of traffic is a whole lot less unnerving than riding with
> >> > traffic.
>
> >> > Commence flaming now.
>
> >> The 120mph in heavy but still doing 70mph traffic on the dan-ryan riders
> >> I see coming 9 times out of ten. Anyone who has the intent to hurt one
> >> of these riders has more than enough time to set up to do it.
>
> > If you have the intent, probably.  However, if the driver of a car has
> > the _intent_ to hurt a motorcyclist, they've got a pretty good chance
> > of pulling it off.  Probably a lesser one if the motorcyclist is
> > "hauling the mail" - since they may not see them coming and/or have
> > enough time to plan or execute the intended assault.
>
> Since I've had motorists plan to do things from annoying me to
> endangering me while I'm bicycling I figured that's what you were
> getting at.

Simple miscommunication then. I run into the same thing on the
bicycle, but have only had one motorist get agressive with me on the
motorcycle, and it was @ 5MPH. She was going straight, stopped at a
red light, and was offended I was passing on the right to take a right
hand turn so she tried to push me into the guardrail, or just get
against it and block me, not sure which. She also called the police,
who caught up with me and were more interested in talking to her than
me - they just wanted my side of the story. No citation mentioned,
although I did say that if she tried to claim the dent to her car was
my fault I'd be interested in persuing assault with a deadly weapon.
The cops assured me it would all stop with a severe chewing of her
rear, and I let it go. Sure, they'll throw a door open when you're
lane splitting stopped traffic @ 5MPH, but I don't encounter deadly
malice, which would be required to try to hit a bike doing 120+ with
your car.


> >> I have
> >> more than enough time to take up a lane location to discourage lane
> >> splitting
> > Or at least that lane.  At high speeds they can likely just move over
> > a few lanes in a second or two, getting away from you altogether.
>
> If they aren't lane splitting me, it's not my paint and sheet metal they
> damage when they screw up.

True, but I'm not following the relevence. We seem to be in agreement
that even if you close that lane-split gap (which is one of the least
common modes of filtering heavy traffic I see) they'll find another
route - so it's still not suicidal.


> >> or at least force them to use the shoulder which they won't do
> >> most of the time because of the debris.
> > They won't?  Most of the riders I rode with and/or know consider
> > anything paved fair game, including the breakdown lane and the narrow
> > shoulder on the left of the leftmost lane.
>
> MOST OF THE TIME. I didn't say always because I've seen it. But I've
> seen more slow down and wait rather than use chicago's debris strewn
> shoulders.

Must be different in Chicago, which I'm sure it is. Around here the
shoulders can have debris, but it's not too bad, and it's considered
fair game by most "outlaw style" sportbike riders I know and know of.


> >  I've cringed watching my
> > riding buddies squeeze between cars and guardrails more times than I
> > can count.  Granted a quick left swirve at the right moment by the car
> > would squish them, but it hasn't happened to anyone I know yet.  I
> > figure the reasons are multiple
> > -Most drivers don't really want to kill a motorcyclist.
>
> Hmm... they act like they want to kill bicyclists. Had one idiot brush
> pass me and then move his car right while still next to me on a chicago
> city street. A first. I believe it was on purpose. But I was too tired
> to do or say anything to him when I caught up to him so I settled for
> the middle finger and then made my turn. (end of the ride, going back to
> my car. 32.75 miles)

See above. I get that on the bicycle too, and yet only once on the
motorcycle, and never at any real speed. Maybe it's because they
consider motorcycles "real vehicles" and don't mind them on "their
streets", or maybe it's just the speed differential. I don't know,
but it's what my experience riding both has shown me.


> > -It happens so fast, the timing would have to be real good.  I like to
> > think the auto drivers that are that good are even less likely to try
> > to kill a motorcyclist for speeding - that seems aunt-judyish to me,
> > and I don't think she has the driving skill or reaction time
>
> It's not for speeding. It's for being on the road and getting ahead. By
> cheating I figure it could only cause more combative drivers.

I don't think that mentality applies much to the types of motorcycle
riders we're talking about. They're there and gone again in seconds -
there's no way a car is keeping up no matter what. It's not like car
to car or car to bicycle where the bike could actually be "taking the
cars spot"


> > -Shell shock.  Most of the time I've seen a bike at real high speeds
> > split a lane, it causes a reflexive swirve _away_ from the motorcycle,
> > at least for the fraction of a second it takes the bike to be past
> > them and on their way.
>
> Hmmm... hope they don't trust my reflexes. I don't even trust myself not
> to do a memory-mode (bicycling) reflex to the right even if they decide
> to split on the right.  

I don't think they count on the reflexive swirve, I think they plan
for what they've got. I'm just saying I've observed the swirve, and
it's always been away from the high-speed projectile that just
surprised them - namely the bike.


> > Also, sport bikes like the ones in question stop real well too.  If
> > they see you moving to close their intended gap, and they can't find
> > another route (rare, in my experience) the bike can come down from
> > 120+ to 70 in a breathtakingly short amount of time.
>
> Which is usually what they do IME.

And since they "usually" do that without a problem in your experience,
and they usually get around and if not do that in my experience, how
is this "suicidal" again?
From: Brent P on 2 Sep 2008 22:44
On 2008-09-02, DanKMTB(a)gmail.com <DanKMTB(a)gmail.com> wrote:

> Must be different in Chicago, which I'm sure it is. Around here the
> shoulders can have debris, but it's not too bad, and it's considered
> fair game by most "outlaw style" sportbike riders I know and know of.

Shoulder debris goes from the usual gravel up to things like car bumper
covers. It can be pretty bad.

> And since they "usually" do that without a problem in your experience,
> and they usually get around and if not do that in my experience, how
> is this "suicidal" again?

When I block them from lane splitting. I've watched what they've done
with unaware drivers and seen a few nearly get creamed when the driver
did something they didn't expect.


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