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From: hls on 28 Mar 2010 17:24

"Steve W." <csr684(a)NOTyahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> Do you mean a 2.2? the 2.4 DOHC doesn't have rocker arms.
>
> Well it could be a bad lifter. The guts are close tolerance and small
> chunks of crud can clog the valve and oil feed.
>
> --
> Steve W.

An eighth inch is a lot of play, IMO. As you say the lifter may be
bad, or the oil pressure to the lifter may be lacking or blocked
off.

On some of the older engines, (Pontiac) the pressed-in rocker stud
would back out over time, and the only cure was to tap them back
in and pin them, or thread the tower and install threaded rocker studs.

In this case, I would give this baby a dose of Marvel Mystery Oil and
drive it a while to see if it would clean up. If so, then change the oil
and keep it changed. There are other compounds than MMO but that
one has worked for me.
From: hls on 28 Mar 2010 17:48

"George" <gbeccles(a)verizon.net> wrote in message
news:vmhvq5dndjt86k285vvlto0fbgq0tm88ku(a)4ax.com...
> On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 16:11:11 -0500, jim <"sjedgingN0Sp"@m(a)mwt.net>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>George wrote:
>>
>>> ('99 Cavalier 2.4, 115K) Has a pretty loud engine ... 'slap', I'd call
>>> it. (It had a 'tick', but this is loud enough to be embarrasing to
>>> drive.)
>>>
>>> We had a similar problem last summer. I listened to the rocker arms
>>> with a stick, and found one that matched the noise. And, I could rotate
>>> that push rod (no others) with my fingers. So, I 'flushed' the engine
>>> oil, and the noise dropped to a tolerable 'tick'.
>>>
>>> That was then. This time, that rocker arm itself is way loose - there's
>>> close to 1/8" of play.
>>>
>>> So: how much adjustment can a lifter take up? Can a stuck lifter cause
>>> that much play, or would that mean that the lifter is dead?
>>
>>Could be a worn down cam.
>
> An eighth of an inch, overnight?
>
> Assuming it is the lifter, can a 'stuck' lifter (ie, one that can
> possibly recover) be down that far? Or, (assuming it is the lifter),
> would it needed to be hopelessly damaged.
>
> I just don't want to bother doing the flush-and-drain thing, if there's
> no point.
>
> G

Hydraulic lifters can accomodate a rather large misadjustment. An
eighth of an inch is,IMO, certainly possible.

If the lifter drains down, sticks down, or doesnt have enough pressure
to pump it up,then you can see what you are witnessing.

I have on occasion gone in and replaced the lifters and it worked. But
just as many times, it hasnt. If you are going in that deep, it is foolish
not to replace a cheapo lifter.

A lifter can certainly stick. Sometimes an additive will help. And this is
cheap and easy to find out.

If you get no satisfaction, then you have to look deeper. Someone mentioned
cam wear, and that has certainly happened before.

You are at the crux that you need to logically go through the possibilities
and see how bad this engine really is..

From: jim on 28 Mar 2010 18:40


George wrote:

> On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 16:11:11 -0500, jim <"sjedgingN0Sp"@m(a)mwt.net>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >George wrote:
> >
> >> ('99 Cavalier 2.4, 115K) Has a pretty loud engine ... 'slap', I'd call
> >> it. (It had a 'tick', but this is loud enough to be embarrasing to
> >> drive.)
> >>
> >> We had a similar problem last summer. I listened to the rocker arms
> >> with a stick, and found one that matched the noise. And, I could rotate
> >> that push rod (no others) with my fingers. So, I 'flushed' the engine
> >> oil, and the noise dropped to a tolerable 'tick'.
> >>
> >> That was then. This time, that rocker arm itself is way loose - there's
> >> close to 1/8" of play.
> >>
> >> So: how much adjustment can a lifter take up? Can a stuck lifter cause
> >> that much play, or would that mean that the lifter is dead?
> >
> >Could be a worn down cam.
>
> An eighth of an inch, overnight?

Your previous post made it sound like the problem had progressed since last
summer.

-jim


>
>
> Assuming it is the lifter, can a 'stuck' lifter (ie, one that can
> possibly recover) be down that far? Or, (assuming it is the lifter),
> would it needed to be hopelessly damaged.
>
> I just don't want to bother doing the flush-and-drain thing, if there's
> no point.
>
> G

From: Steve W. on 28 Mar 2010 19:52
George wrote:
> On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 15:31:13 -0400, "Steve W." <csr684(a)NOTyahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>> George wrote:
>>> ('99 Cavalier 2.4, 115K) Has a pretty loud engine ... 'slap', I'd call
>>> it. (It had a 'tick', but this is loud enough to be embarrasing to
>>> drive.)
>>>
>>> We had a similar problem last summer. I listened to the rocker arms
>>> with a stick, and found one that matched the noise. And, I could rotate
>>> that push rod (no others) with my fingers. So, I 'flushed' the engine
>>> oil, and the noise dropped to a tolerable 'tick'.
>>>
>>> That was then. This time, that rocker arm itself is way loose - there's
>>> close to 1/8" of play.
>>>
>>> So: how much adjustment can a lifter take up? Can a stuck lifter cause
>>> that much play, or would that mean that the lifter is dead?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> George
>> Do you mean a 2.2? the 2.4 DOHC doesn't have rocker arms.
>
> Yeah, 2.2. (I remember it as "not what I think it is," and I used to
> think it was a 2.0. I guess that means my memory is improving?)
>> Well it could be a bad lifter. The guts are close tolerance and small
>> chunks of crud can clog the valve and oil feed.
>
> It's pretty definitely the lifter. The question I have is whether to
> bother trying the oil flush thing, or just go to plan B.
>
> G

OK the 2.2 uses roller lifters. Probably either the spring failed which
makes the internal valving junk. Not really common with newer vehicles
but it does happen. It could be just crud BUT it's not easy to tell
unless you have the lifter apart! You could try using an oil can filled
with trans fluid and shoot it down through the pushrod and then work the
plunger in the lifter with the pushrod. Not sure it will work but it
won't hurt it.
The other option would be replacing the lifter. The nice thing is that
being a roller lifter you can replace just the bad one. Coat it with a
good pre-lube though. But the head has to come off...

--
Steve W.
From: George on 28 Mar 2010 23:01
On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 19:52:05 -0400, "Steve W." <csr684(a)NOTyahoo.com>
wrote:

>George wrote:
>> On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 15:31:13 -0400, "Steve W." <csr684(a)NOTyahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> George wrote:
>>>> ('99 Cavalier 2.4, 115K) Has a pretty loud engine ... 'slap', I'd call
>>>> it. (It had a 'tick', but this is loud enough to be embarrasing to
>>>> drive.)
>>>>
>>>> We had a similar problem last summer. I listened to the rocker arms
>>>> with a stick, and found one that matched the noise. And, I could rotate
>>>> that push rod (no others) with my fingers. So, I 'flushed' the engine
>>>> oil, and the noise dropped to a tolerable 'tick'.
>>>>
>>>> That was then. This time, that rocker arm itself is way loose - there's
>>>> close to 1/8" of play.
>>>>
>>>> So: how much adjustment can a lifter take up? Can a stuck lifter cause
>>>> that much play, or would that mean that the lifter is dead?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> George
>>> Do you mean a 2.2? the 2.4 DOHC doesn't have rocker arms.
>>
>> Yeah, 2.2. (I remember it as "not what I think it is," and I used to
>> think it was a 2.0. I guess that means my memory is improving?)
>>> Well it could be a bad lifter. The guts are close tolerance and small
>>> chunks of crud can clog the valve and oil feed.
>>
>> It's pretty definitely the lifter. The question I have is whether to
>> bother trying the oil flush thing, or just go to plan B.
>>
>> G
>
>OK the 2.2 uses roller lifters. Probably either the spring failed which
>makes the internal valving junk. ...
>The other option would be replacing the lifter. The nice thing is that
>being a roller lifter you can replace just the bad one. Coat it with a
>good pre-lube though. But the head has to come off...

Yeah, that's Plan B. It's not very appealing - we'll probably have to
replace the car by fall, anyway. (Major rust, among other things.)

I think I'll try your idea of pouring something down the pushrod.

Thanks,
G
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