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From: Mrcheerful on 19 Jun 2008 15:31 Arfa Daily wrote: > "Arfa Daily" <arfa.daily(a)ntlworld.com> wrote in message > news:Oow6k.29540$P83.28206(a)newsfe20.ams2... >> >> "Mrcheerful" <nbkm57(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message >> news:GBo6k.12021$E41.1321(a)text.news.virginmedia.com... >>> Arfa Daily wrote: >>>> "Clint Sharp" <clint(a)clintsmc.demon.co.uk> wrote in message >>>> news:3GhC8TGFzUWIFwN7(a)clintsmc.demon.co.uk... >>>>> In message <tiT5k.9179$iv3.2830(a)newsfe14.ams2>, Arfa Daily >>>>> <arfa.daily(a)ntlworld.com> writes >>>>>> Hi all >>>>>> >>>>>> Any thoughts, insights, advice etc appreciated. >>>>>> >>>>> 1. Just because the dealer told you it was the cat doesn't mean >>>>> they are correct (or honest). >>>>> >>>>> 2. Ditch your garage, find one that has their own diag gear and >>>>> knows how to use it, yours doesn't have the gear to reset the >>>>> warning light so they aren't reading the codes either. They are >>>>> guessing about the fault based on what you're telling them, if it >>>>> all goes titsup and the fault doesn't go away, guess who they'll >>>>> blame! You could end up buying a cat only to find it's something >>>>> completely different and the fault reappears a few hundred miles >>>>> later when the new cat stops working. 3. Scan tools *only* give an >>>>> indication of the fault, it's often not >>>>> cut and dried that the reported fault is caused by the component >>>>> named by the scan tool or even the 'obvious' one. >>>>> >>>>> 4. Cats and O2 Sensors are notoriously easy to make mistakes with, >>>>> especially when the fitter takes the codes as gospel because few >>>>> mechanics actually understand combustion and emissions control >>>>> systems and how one end of the system is affected by the other. >>>>> >>>>> 5. If it's low mileage, unless she's done something monumentally >>>>> stupid, it possibly just needs a good thrashing and the light >>>>> turning off (It may even go off on its own after said Italian tune >>>>> up.) >>>>>> TIA Arfa >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Clint Sharp >>>> >>>> Thanks for the comments, all. I was assuming that as the diagnosis >>>> was made by main dealers Allen Ford, that they would have got it >>>> right. Am I wrong to assume this ? Are main dealers' service >>>> personel not sufficiently properly trained in the interpretation >>>> of fault codes on their own dealership vehicles, to be able to >>>> make a definitive diagnosis ? Heaven knows where we go from here, >>>> if that's not the case ... If I can't trust what *they* say, then >>>> I really don't know whether I can suggest that she goes elsewhere >>>> and seeks a second opinion, for which she is going to have to >>>> shell out yet more wonga over what she already has. And if they >>>> come up with a different diagnosis, what then ? >>>> I don't know off the top of my head what the mileage is, but I do >>>> know that she doesn't do all that much in it herself, and is >>>> unlikely to have done anything as you say "monumentally stupid". >>>> She did say to me though that it is not running well, and feels >>>> "ill". FWIW, I seem to remember that some time ago, she did have >>>> another >>>> occurence of an engine warning light coming on, and that was, as >>>> you say, a faulty oxygen sensor, which was duly replaced. I don't >>>> know which one though. >>>> You are correct about the other garage that I spoke to. They are >>>> just my local village garage where we have general servicing and >>>> MOTs done on our 'bog standard' cars. They are reasonably cheap, >>>> and honest, and I have been using them for 30 years. They do have >>>> a basic hand-held OBD analyser, but they freely admit that they >>>> are not specialists in the field of electronic engine management, >>>> and for that reason, have a 'mobile' specialist that they can call >>>> in. They were just quoting me to do the basic job of replacing the >>>> cat, and getting the fault light reset, based on what the main >>>> dealer had said needed doing, and which I trusted to be a full and >>>> correct analysis of the problem. >>>> So, I really don't know what to recommend now that she does. 690 >>>> quid is a lot of dosh in anyone's book, and she hasn't really got >>>> it, and neither have I at the moment. >>>> >>>> Arfa >>> >>> Just a thought, what fuel does she use? Rubbish stuff seems to >>> mess up o2 sensors more than good stuff. Try a tank or two of bp >>> ultimate or shell optimax or one of the premium types. Being over >>> full of oil can wreck o2 sensors and cats, as can putting diesel >>> in!. >> >> Thanks for the tip, I'll pass it on to her. So are you saying that >> this might cause the problem to 'self heal' if it is a sensor issue >> rather than an actual cat problem ? With a tank-full of 'good stuff' >> on board, is it worth giving it a good ragging as Clint suggested ? >> If it seems to run better after, but the light is still on, should >> she just swallow the cost, and get the local boys to get their man >> in, and get the light reset, and then see if it stays off, and if >> not, get from him what exactly what the fault code is to see if it >> then offers any more clues to you lads ? Thanks for all the help and >> suggestions so far. >> >> Arfa > > BTW, she has just told me that the mileage is just over 32k. > > Arfa If it is all running OK the light will probably reset itself after a certain number of starts without problems. Cats usually outlast the car, except that they are now being stolen by the pykies while you go shopping or even in the road outside your house!!
From: DervMan on 20 Jun 2008 02:04
"Arfa Daily" <arfa.daily(a)ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:_Lh6k.22017$312.21364(a)newsfe12.ams2... > > "Clint Sharp" <clint(a)clintsmc.demon.co.uk> wrote in message > news:3GhC8TGFzUWIFwN7(a)clintsmc.demon.co.uk... >> In message <tiT5k.9179$iv3.2830(a)newsfe14.ams2>, Arfa Daily >> <arfa.daily(a)ntlworld.com> writes >>>Hi all >>> >>>Any thoughts, insights, advice etc appreciated. >>> >> 1. Just because the dealer told you it was the cat doesn't mean they are >> correct (or honest). >> >> 2. Ditch your garage, find one that has their own diag gear and knows how >> to use it, yours doesn't have the gear to reset the warning light so they >> aren't reading the codes either. They are guessing about the fault based >> on what you're telling them, if it all goes titsup and the fault doesn't >> go away, guess who they'll blame! You could end up buying a cat only to >> find it's something completely different and the fault reappears a few >> hundred miles later when the new cat stops working. >> >> 3. Scan tools *only* give an indication of the fault, it's often not cut >> and dried that the reported fault is caused by the component named by the >> scan tool or even the 'obvious' one. >> >> 4. Cats and O2 Sensors are notoriously easy to make mistakes with, >> especially when the fitter takes the codes as gospel because few >> mechanics actually understand combustion and emissions control systems >> and how one end of the system is affected by the other. >> >> 5. If it's low mileage, unless she's done something monumentally stupid, >> it possibly just needs a good thrashing and the light turning off (It may >> even go off on its own after said Italian tune up.) >> >>>TIA Arfa >>> >>> >> >> -- >> Clint Sharp > > Thanks for the comments, all. I was assuming that as the diagnosis was > made by main dealers Allen Ford, that they would have got it right. Am I > wrong to assume this? Yes. The ability of the technician to understand what's up with the engine varies. Using diagnostics is much, much more than "computer says no" or "computer says yes." When my Ka's TMAP sensor died, my own OBD-II scanner told me that the TMAP was broken. I could also see from the sensor logs that it was jumping from nothing to a normal reading to nothing, so I was reasonably confident that it was the TMAP. That and it was also knocking up against the strut brace and had visible damage... ....but replacing the TMAP sensor was something like �140, so I talked to my favourite dealers for other likely issues. It can also be a leaky hose, and replacing one of those is much cheaper and checking it is easier. In the end and in this case I was right in that it was the TMAP, but it's wise to try to understand what else can cause the same fault code. > Are main dealers' service personel not sufficiently properly trained in > the interpretation of fault codes on their own dealership vehicles, to be > able to make a definitive diagnosis? Well, see above - there can be several faults that lead to the one or two error codes. The skill is in understanding why a fault code comes up. Anybody can simply read the code, look up the reference on a website, and announce that they know what the fault is. Some dealers may simply tell the customer what the fault code says and a list of things to replace, starting with the most expensive. Some dealers explain that it has *caused* the cat to die but the real issue is something else. > Heaven knows where we go from here, if that's not the case ... If I can't > trust what *they* say, then I really don't know whether I can suggest that > she goes elsewhere and seeks a second opinion, for which she is going to > have to shell out yet more wonga over what she already has. And if they > come up with a different diagnosis, what then ? That's why I suggested you find a well respected dealer. Finding a small, family owned dealer is helpful. > I don't know off the top of my head what the mileage is, but I do know > that she doesn't do all that much in it herself, and is unlikely to have > done anything as you say "monumentally stupid". She did say to me though > that it is not running well, and feels "ill". It may be a blocked, broken up cat, perhaps caused by the donk running overly rich, the cat overheating and killing itself... > FWIW, I seem to remember that some time ago, she did have another > occurence of an engine warning light coming on, and that was, as you say, > a faulty oxygen sensor, which was duly replaced. I don't know which one > though. See above - it's possible that the dealer replaced what the computer said was faulty and didn't do any more tracing. > You are correct about the other garage that I spoke to. They are just my > local village garage where we have general servicing and MOTs done on our > 'bog standard' cars. They are reasonably cheap, and honest, and I have > been using them for 30 years. They do have a basic hand-held OBD analyser, > but they freely admit that they are not specialists in the field of > electronic engine management, and for that reason, have a 'mobile' > specialist that they can call in. They were just quoting me to do the > basic job of replacing the cat, and getting the fault light reset, based > on what the main dealer had said needed doing, and which I trusted to be a > full and correct analysis of the problem. > So, I really don't know what to recommend now that she does. 690 quid is a > lot of dosh in anyone's book, and she hasn't really got it, and neither > have I at the moment. Correct. Just out of interest, what have they provided you with so far and how much did it cost? Did they charge you �50 to read the fault code? Or �50 for a diagnostics exercise including reading the fault code? If it's the first, then it may be a case of "computer says no" and they're replacing the cat because that's what is faulty, without investigation as to what caused it. If it's the second, there's a bit more confidence about it... -- The DervMan www.dervman.com |