Another one killed on a pavement and a wall smashed!
in [UK Drivers]
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From: JNugent on 12 Jun 2010 20:05 Phil W Lee wrote: > JNugent <JN(a)nonexistentaddress.com>: [huge snip] PWL: >>>>> I don't know which "many places" you are on about, but the local law >>>>> in the UK is that you cannot drive a carriage on the footway, except >>>>> to access adjacent property (i.e. not just the footway itself, but >>>>> something beyond the boundary of the highway). ... >>>>> Maybe you should look it up? >>>> "The local law in the UK"? >>>> Where would one look that up? >>> In this case, you could try >>> http://www.opsi.gov.uk/RevisedStatutes/Acts/ukpga/1847/cukpga_18470089_en_1 >>> Section 28 [Quoted Town Police Clauses Act 1847] >> Wher is this "local law" you tried to cite? > You were the one who claimed that any such laws would only be local. Indeed they are, as I pointed out in another post. > I simply pointed out that "local" in that case must be England and > Wales (although I actually said UK, so apologies to those in Scotland > and Ulster who probably have their own equivalents). I gave you that get-out and so you have tried to use it, but it is beyond the bounds of credibility that you meant national law when you said "local law". > I'll paste a copy of that below, in case you can't manage to remember > it or look through the quoted text above: >>>>>> Not unless there is a local law agin it. And there isn't such a law in many >>>>>> places. >>>>> I don't know which "many places" you are on about, but the local law >>>>> in the UK is that you cannot drive a carriage on the footway, except >>>>> to access adjacent property (i.e. not just the footway itself, but >>>>> something beyond the boundary of the highway). >>>>> Other countries (or indeed planets, such as the aforementioned judge >>>>> must have been an inhabitant of) may be different. See the parallel post (from earlier). The law you cited does not apply everywhere in E&W. Even where it applies, not every part of it need apply. That means that my point that there isn't such a law (against footway parking) in many places is correct. But we all knew that in the first place. You appear not to understand how the TPCA 1847 works.
From: JNugent on 12 Jun 2010 20:13 Phil W Lee wrote: > JNugent <JN(a)nonexistentaddress.com> considered Sat, 12 Jun 2010 > 18:09:49 +0100 the perfect time to write: > >> JNugent wrote: >> >>> Phil W Lee wrote: >>>> JNugent <JN(a)nonexistentaddress.com>: >>>>> Phil W Lee wrote: >> [ ... ] >> >>>>>>>> Yet compare the statistics for the number of pedestrians killed on >>>>>>>> the pavement by cars and bicycles respectively. >>>>>>> How many of them involve cars being driven *along* footways (to get >>>>>>> somewhere else) in the manner of bicycles? >>>>>> Far more than involve bicycles, even if you ignore the ones who claim >>>>>> to have arrived there through no fault of their own. >>>>>>> [Hint: the answer is either "none" or so close to "none" as makes >>>>>>> no practical differnce.] >>>>>> Maybe you should look it up? >>>>> "The local law in the UK"? >>>>> Where would one look that up? >> And how, come to think of it, would looking up a piece of law - whether >> "local" or otherwise - tell us how how many pedestrian injuries are caused by >> drivers of motor vehicles drivinmg along the footway? >> >>>> In this case, you could try >>>> http://www.opsi.gov.uk/RevisedStatutes/Acts/ukpga/1847/cukpga_18470089_en_1 >>>> Section 28 >>>> Which tells us that: >>>> "Every person who causes any public carriage, sledge, truck, or >>>> barrow, with or without horses, or any beast of burden, to stand >>>> longer than is necessary for loading or unloading goods, or for taking >>>> up or setting down passengers (except hackney carriages, and horses >>>> and other beasts of draught or burthen, standing for hire in any place >>>> appointed for that purpose by the commissioners or other lawful >>>> authority), and every person who, by means of any cart, carriage, >>>> sledge, truck, or barrow, or any animal, or other means, wilfully >>>> interrupts any public crossing, or wilfully causes any obstruction in >>>> any public footpath or other public thoroughfare:" >>>> >>>> and >>>> >>>> "Every person who leads or rides any horse or other animal, or draws >>>> or drives any cart or carriage, sledge, truck, or barrow upon any >>>> footway of any street, or fastens any horse or other animal so that it >>>> stands across or upon any footway:" >>>> >>>> "shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding [F1level 3 on the standard >>>> scale] for each offence, or, in the discretion of the justice before >>>> whom he is convicted, may be committed to prison, there to remain for >>>> a period not exceeding fourteen days," >>> That is NOT (got it? ***NOT***) "local law", unless "local law" means >>> "local to England and Wales". >>> Wher is this "local law" you tried to cite? >> Perhaps I was being a little unkind to you there. >> >> The Town Police Clauses Act 1847 is national (and certainly not "local") law, >> but it is not law which actually applies anywhere unless a council which >> administers a town or borough adopts it, piecemeal. They don't have to have >> the whole menu. They can adopt á la carte. > > That's not what The Act says. Nevertheless it's the way the Act operates. Even dating from 163 years ago as it does, it is still the main source of some important permissive powers for local authorities (ie, district councils). > 1 Extent of Act > This Act shall extend only to such towns or districts in England or > Ireland as shall be comprised in any Act of Parliament hereafter to be > passed There's you answer. > which shall declare that this Act shall be incorporated > therewith; and all the clauses of this Act, save so far as they shall > be expressly varied or excepted by any such Act, shall apply to the > town or district which shall be comprised in such Act, and to the > commissioners appointed for improving and regulating the same, so far > as such clauses shall be applicable thereto respectively, and shall, > with the clauses of every other Act which shall be incorporated > therewith, form part of such Act, and be construed therewith as > forming one Act. >> It is because not every council has adopted it - and because not every >> council which has adopted some of of it has adopted all of it - that the >> legal position is different from place to place. > Well, it's the exact piece of legislation that is used against > cyclists on the footway, so are you claiming that is variable in it's > application? It is. Moreover, it is variable in its relevance. Remember the remark about "á la carte"? >> In order for placing a vehicle on a footway to be illegal, the council has to >> have adopted that part of the Town Police Clauses Act 1847 which relates to >> such activities and which creates the "offence" (where none otherwise applies). > So you are saying that it is legal to cycle on the footway, unless > (and apparently there need be no sign warning of this) the local > council has adopted the power to prohibit them. No. I am telling you how the TPCA 1847 operates. Which part of it operates in a particular place is a matter for the local authority. Its application is not geographically uniform, not even as between authorities which have adopted powers under it. >> So it is national law which may - or may not - apply locally. >> You cannot quote it and say "It applies everywhere". And that is because it >> simply doesn't. > Well, as you pointed out, it doesn't apply outside England and Wales > (although it claims Ireland as well, it also says later that the NI > has the powers applied slightly differently). That came later (the NI bit). You may have heard about the changes in arrangements in Ireland not long after WW1. The fact that it doesn't apply outside England and Wales is a red herring (rthere is similar legislation for Scotland). The more important fact is that it doesn't apply everywhere *in* England and Wales, and where it does apply, not all of it need apply. Only the local authority and the police can tell you which bits - if any - apply in a particular location. Did you really not know that?
From: Nick Finnigan on 13 Jun 2010 06:32 Phil W Lee wrote: > > Well, it's the exact piece of legislation that is used against > cyclists on the footway, so are you claiming that is variable in it's > application? No, it isn't. TPCA 1847 (as amended) does mention footway but requires 'to the obstruction, annoyance, or danger of the residents or passengers, ' Highways Act 1835 72 (as amended) is usually quoted. However, that legislation states 'footpath or causeway' rather than 'footway'.
From: Brimstone on 13 Jun 2010 08:39 "Nick Finnigan" <nix(a)genie.co.uk> wrote in message news:hv2c3a$3d7$2(a)news.eternal-september.org... > Phil W Lee wrote: >> >> Well, it's the exact piece of legislation that is used against >> cyclists on the footway, so are you claiming that is variable in it's >> application? > > No, it isn't. TPCA 1847 (as amended) does mention footway but requires > 'to the obstruction, annoyance, or danger of the residents or passengers, > ' > > Highways Act 1835 72 (as amended) is usually quoted. However, that > legislation states 'footpath or causeway' rather than 'footway'. And the practical difference between a footway and a footpath is what exactly?
From: JNugent on 13 Jun 2010 09:05
Brimstone wrote: > > "Nick Finnigan" <nix(a)genie.co.uk> wrote in message > news:hv2c3a$3d7$2(a)news.eternal-september.org... >> Phil W Lee wrote: >>> >>> Well, it's the exact piece of legislation that is used against >>> cyclists on the footway, so are you claiming that is variable in it's >>> application? >> >> No, it isn't. TPCA 1847 (as amended) does mention footway but requires >> 'to the obstruction, annoyance, or danger of the residents or >> passengers, ' >> >> Highways Act 1835 72 (as amended) is usually quoted. However, that >> legislation states 'footpath or causeway' rather than 'footway'. > > And the practical difference between a footway and a footpath is what > exactly? I'd have thought that was obvious. One is a pedestrian-only strip which is adjacent to a carriageway (both being part of the "road") and the other is a pedestrian-only route which is not adjacent to a carriageway (eg along the margin between two fields on a farm). |