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From: L Alpert on 12 Oct 2008 07:25 "jim beam" <spamvortex(a)bad.example.net> wrote in message news:l46dnTR7A4WbwWzVnZ2dnUVZ_ofinZ2d(a)speakeasy.net... >L Alpert wrote: >> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop(a)nastydesigns.com> wrote in message >> news:elmop-30CFB5.13340111102008(a)news.x-privat.org... >>> In article <%n4Ik.4646$Ws1.901(a)nlpi064.nbdc.sbc.com>, >>> "L Alpert" <alpertl(a)xxsbcglobal.net> wrote: >>> >>>> I have never had an issue with the Hondas I have owned over the >>>> past 30 >>>> years or so using off the shelf items such as ATF, antifreeze, >>>> brake fluid, >>>> oil, etc. >>>> >>>> I seriously doubt that there is anything "special" about them >>>> other than the >>>> label. >>> Go ahead, then, use non-Honda ATF and tell us what you think. >>> >>> Same with coolant. >>> >>> Shoot, same with power steering fluid nowadays. >>> >>> They're all part of a complex system that's highly engineered. >>> Long >>> gone are the days of everybody using the same stuff that's off the >>> shelf >>> at Goober's gas station. >> >> There is nothing specific about Honda fluids. They are generic >> products > > i've proven that not true for at least two of the major car fluids. > > * use of non-honda power steering fluid in a honda system wrecks > seals. i know that from personal experience. > > * use of non-honda transmission fluid, even one that allegedly > exceeds the nominal dexron II spec, makes a honda transmission shift > like you've been rear-ended. i know that from personal experience. > > i don't know any different facts on honda coolant or brake fluids, > but based on the above, i can easily believe them to be of a high > spec that exceeds relabeled generics. While I respect your opinions (from what I've read in this group), I would have to say that personal experiences are a small sample size. I have had Honda vehicles for 30+ years, and never used any Honda branded fluids, and never had an issue, though my personal experiences are a small sample size as well, even if they differ from yours. > > >> that are made by other manufacturers that label them for Honda. >> >> They may audit their suppliers, and will have specific requirements >> for quality systems and/or ensure that they are ISO registered, but >> of course, the systems also apply to anything they manufacture. > > iso has /nothing/ to do with a manufacturer's tech specs. It has to do with quality systems and documentation.
From: Scott Dorsey on 12 Oct 2008 09:17 Bob Jones <email(a)me.not> wrote: >But not all antifreeze of the same type are created equal for a particular >vehicle. This is unfortunately true, and it's precisely the sort of thing I was talking about. And it's an example of the technology outpacing the standards. You can go down to the local auto parts store today, and buy a generic jug of coolant for your 1980 car, no problem. In a few years, you should be able to go out to the local auto parts store and buy a generic jug of coolant for your 2009 car, but not quite yet for all cars. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
From: jim beam on 12 Oct 2008 11:09 L Alpert wrote: > "jim beam" <spamvortex(a)bad.example.net> wrote in message > news:l46dnTZ7A4WGwWzVnZ2dnUVZ_ofinZ2d(a)speakeasy.net... >> L Alpert wrote: >>> "jim beam" <spamvortex(a)bad.example.net> wrote in message >>> news:dqKdndcpFsYjSW3VnZ2dnUVZ_sHinZ2d(a)speakeasy.net... >>>> L Alpert wrote: >>>>> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop(a)nastydesigns.com> wrote in message >>>>> news:elmop-41CC57.17532810102008(a)news.x-privat.org... >>>>>> In article <prlue495c95rtnjifnpj92rfkg69viqeu7(a)4ax.com>, >>>>>> Retired VIP <jackj.extradots.180(a)windstream.net> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Scott, I don't believe that Honda or any other car manufacturer >>>>>>> does >>>>>>> quality control testing on anything produced outside of their >>>>>>> own >>>>>>> factories. >>>>>> Sure they do. >>>>>> >>>>>> They spec power steering fluid and auto trans fluid, and if you >>>>>> bypass >>>>>> their stuff, you see problems. >>>>>> >>>>>> Engine oil, probably not. >>>>> I have never had an issue with the Hondas I have owned over the >>>>> past 30 years or so using off the shelf items such as ATF, >>>>> antifreeze, brake fluid, oil, etc. >>>> i use c.o.t.s antifreeze, brake fluid etc., but not atf. in my >>>> experience, the only atf that makes a honda shift well is honda >>>> z1. if you've added non-honda fluid and it's been "ok", it sounds >>>> like you haven't achieved full dilution. >>>> >>>> >>>>> I seriously doubt that there is anything "special" about them >>>>> other than the label. >>>> rather than just "doubt", why don't you do some homework? do you >>>> "doubt" that the component quality used by honda under the hood is >>>> any better than frod? have you ever dissected a honda vs. >>>> non-honda spec igniter unit for instance? honda may not >>>> manufacture half their stuff directly, but they /do/ write the >>>> spec and /do/ undertake q.c. >>>> >>> While specific components that are manufactured for specific >>> applications will be built for those applications, genric items >>> that are manufactured to a general specification and relabled as >>> OEM are not. >> that statement is technically true... >> >> >>> This is something I am quite familiar with, as I have been in the >>> OEM industry for many years (non automotive, but OEM non the less). >> but here's the problem, you're /presuming/ that to be always the >> case. it's not! just because some manufacturers do that, doesn't >> mean they all do. >> > > We make the same component for 4 different companies. Although each > customer has a slightly different specification, the process is > designed to meet them all. > > For anyone to mass manufacture a single component under multiple > processes and conditions would have great cost implications. It is an > economic reality. indeed. but i return to the original point - i can tell you from experience that two "generic" products used on hondas are not generic at all - atf and p/s fluid. just because others practice what you say, doesn't mean they all do.
From: jim beam on 12 Oct 2008 11:09 L Alpert wrote: > "jim beam" <spamvortex(a)bad.example.net> wrote in message > news:l46dnTR7A4WbwWzVnZ2dnUVZ_ofinZ2d(a)speakeasy.net... >> L Alpert wrote: >>> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop(a)nastydesigns.com> wrote in message >>> news:elmop-30CFB5.13340111102008(a)news.x-privat.org... >>>> In article <%n4Ik.4646$Ws1.901(a)nlpi064.nbdc.sbc.com>, >>>> "L Alpert" <alpertl(a)xxsbcglobal.net> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I have never had an issue with the Hondas I have owned over the >>>>> past 30 >>>>> years or so using off the shelf items such as ATF, antifreeze, >>>>> brake fluid, >>>>> oil, etc. >>>>> >>>>> I seriously doubt that there is anything "special" about them >>>>> other than the >>>>> label. >>>> Go ahead, then, use non-Honda ATF and tell us what you think. >>>> >>>> Same with coolant. >>>> >>>> Shoot, same with power steering fluid nowadays. >>>> >>>> They're all part of a complex system that's highly engineered. >>>> Long >>>> gone are the days of everybody using the same stuff that's off the >>>> shelf >>>> at Goober's gas station. >>> There is nothing specific about Honda fluids. They are generic >>> products >> i've proven that not true for at least two of the major car fluids. >> >> * use of non-honda power steering fluid in a honda system wrecks >> seals. i know that from personal experience. >> >> * use of non-honda transmission fluid, even one that allegedly >> exceeds the nominal dexron II spec, makes a honda transmission shift >> like you've been rear-ended. i know that from personal experience. >> >> i don't know any different facts on honda coolant or brake fluids, >> but based on the above, i can easily believe them to be of a high >> spec that exceeds relabeled generics. > > While I respect your opinions (from what I've read in this group), I > would have to say that personal experiences are a small sample size. > > I have had Honda vehicles for 30+ years, and never used any Honda > branded fluids, and never had an issue, though my personal experiences > are a small sample size as well, even if they differ from yours. i don't use honda branded brake fluid or coolant. but i do use honda branded atf and power steering because of past problems. when i was young and dumb, you couldn't tell me that it was worth paying for honda atf - afterall the book said it was just dexron II spec. however, when my car started to shift badly after i changed out the fluid, you'd think i'd learn, right? no. long story short - several cars [not just mine], and some time later, the penny finally drops. honda atf /is/ different. and a honda starts to shift better again immediately you revert back to their stuff. same for power steering fluid and watching people get leaks a couple of months after using generic. multiple times over the years [though fortunately, not on my cars]. i understand honda p/s fluid has silicone in it and hardware different seal materials. don't ask me why. > > > >> >>> that are made by other manufacturers that label them for Honda. >>> >>> They may audit their suppliers, and will have specific requirements >>> for quality systems and/or ensure that they are ISO registered, but >>> of course, the systems also apply to anything they manufacture. >> iso has /nothing/ to do with a manufacturer's tech specs. > > It has to do with quality systems and documentation. right - it paper-trails the production - iso9001 [etc] has nothing to do with whether the spec was written correctly or is appropriate. it's incredibly common for someone to spec the wrong material for a job - but it's still perfectly iso compliant!
From: jim beam on 12 Oct 2008 11:25
Scott Dorsey wrote: > Bob Jones <email(a)me.not> wrote: >> But not all antifreeze of the same type are created equal for a particular >> vehicle. > > This is unfortunately true, and it's precisely the sort of thing I was > talking about. And it's an example of the technology outpacing the > standards. > > You can go down to the local auto parts store today, and buy a generic > jug of coolant for your 1980 car, no problem. > > In a few years, you should be able to go out to the local auto parts > store and buy a generic jug of coolant for your 2009 car, but not quite > yet for all cars. > --scott it's not so long ago that you couldn't get non-silicate antifreeze at the auto parts store - just like it took some time after honda engine oil spec changed to 5w-20 before you could buy generics of that weight. bottom line - in a lot of cases, you can buy a perfectly decent generic qualified for its job. but the manufacturer brand is a /guarantee/ it will work - generic is not. |