for the guys that are into recreational oil changing...
in [Technical]
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From: jim beam on 5 Apr 2010 12:08 On 04/05/2010 08:59 AM, Michael wrote: > On Apr 3, 10:08�am, jim beam<m...(a)privacy.net> wrote: >> On 04/01/2010 03:32 PM, Michael wrote: >> >> >> >>> On Apr 1, 3:06 pm, n...(a)wt.net wrote: >>>> On Apr 1, 1:56 pm, Michael<mrdarr...(a)gmail.com> �wrote: >> >>>>> On Mar 29, 5:41 pm, jim beam<m...(a)privacy.net> �wrote: >> >>>>>> http://www.dtsc.ca.gov/TechnologyDevelopment/OPPTD_FLY_High-Efficienc... >> >>>>>> shock, horror, they used oil analysis to arrive at these recommendations! >> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> nomina rutrum rutrum >> >>>>> Interesting point: "The HE filters used in this study claimed >>>>> filtration of particles to 1-2 [microns], much better than standard >>>>> filters of 30-50 [microns]. Using standard filters is one reason that >>>>> motor oil needs to be changed; it gets dirty with small particles >>>>> which results in engine wear. In this regard, standard filters have >>>>> not improved over the years compared to significant improvements in >>>>> motor oil quality. The oil change interval set in warranties is a >>>>> result of standard filters being the limiting factor, not the motor >>>>> oil quality. Hence, higher quality filters will help to extend motor >>>>> oil life to its full potential." >> >>>> The smaller the particle the filter traps, the quicker it is going to >>>> clog up. >>>> Also, until you get to a point of saturation, the size of the >>>> particles missed >>>> by a "standard" filter are not large enough to do much engine wear. >>>> I'm fairly anal about my vehicle, but I don't use filters that trap >>>> very fine >>>> particles. I use regular old standard filters. They are less prone to >>>> being >>>> clogged. And if that happens the bypass kicks in and you have no >>>> filtering at all. >> >>>>> This raises the question: would it be safe to keep engine oil for >>>>> 10,000 miles if you replace JUST the oil filter every 5,000 miles? >> >>>> It would depend on the service. If it's all highway miles, maybe.. >>>> If not, pretty risky.. :( >> >>>>> Is an HE filter necessary? Oil analysis comparisons of the HE Fram X2 >>>>> filter vs. a normal CarQuest filter would have been nice. >> >>>> I think it's a waste of money, and also not the greatest idea as I >>>> have already touched on. >> >>>>> Maybe I can do an experiment with my '96 Camry (176k miles). For my >>>>> wife's car, the 5,000 mile oil change will remain... >> >>>> If your Camry has 176k miles on it, you are probably doing something >>>> right. Why change? :/ >> >>>> Myself, I use regular standard filters, half decent oil, "castrol >>>> syntec blend", >>>> and I change it every 5k miles like the manual and the blinky light >>>> on >>>> the dashboard says. I'm not a fan of "extended oil change skeds". >>>> The purpose of changing the oil and filter is to remove the dirt, >>>> acids, >>>> moisture, and whatever else, and to replenish the additives in the >>>> oil. >>>> I'm not going much past 5k in any of my vehicles, and I don't care >>>> what anyone thinks about it. My older trucks actually get dirtier >>>> after 5k miles than my newer Corolla. It's so clean burning it is >>>> really >>>> not that bad after 5k.. But I change it anyway. Cheap insurance. >>>> I don't use synth blend in the trucks though.. Just regular dino oil.. >>>> I only use the synth blend in the Corolla as extra insurance against >>>> the dreaded gelling problem. Again, the extra cost is cheap insurance >>>> the way I see it. >> >>> Ok, thanks for the info. �Good points all around. �Maybe the car can >>> go longer on multiple filters, but 5k miles is long enough. �My use >>> might even qualify as "severe" come to think of it... mixed city/ >>> highway driving. >> >>> Was using Castrol regular 10W-30, thinking of putting in regular Mobil >>> 5W-30 for better fuel economy next change due in ~900 miles. >> >>> Thanks, >> >>> Michael >> >> ok, if mobil will go 20k miles per actual usage:http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024(a)N00/4291579733/ >> >> will you still change it at 5k? >> >> -- >> nomina rutrum rutrum > > > > I was thinking of extending the interval, but when I looked for an oil > change interval in my manual I couldn't find one (!?) Haynes > specifies a 3000 mile interval for both the '96 and '99. > > Funny how Mobil doesn't say extended intervals are ok... yes they do - they specifically give mileages for the following: clean 5000 clean 7500 m1 extended performance - 15000. > > I guess I'll just replace oil and filter at 5k... -- nomina rutrum rutrum
From: dr_jeff on 5 Apr 2010 12:13 jim wrote: > > dr_jeff wrote: > >> How does antifreeze interrupt the oil film? Does it act like a soap, >> dissolving it? > > Actually the detergents and dispersants "act like soap" and have the > effect of keeping all sorts of stuff in solution in the oil - including > antifreeze. This works as long as the additives aren't overwhelmed with > too much "stuff". > Acts like soap means its similar but a bit different. In the case of > washing your hands the solvent is the water. Oil is a different type of > solvent, different soap, but the same general idea. Apparently, glycol is even nastier for oil than I suspected: http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/193/oil-glycol. It chemically reacts with different things, doesn't dissolve well in oil and makes acid. Jeff >> I imagine alcohol or hand sanitizer (which 60% ethanol) >> does the same thing. Just like soap disrupts the oil film or whatever on >> my hands when I wash after checking the oil? > > > >> Jeff >> >>> particularly on cams at low >>> speeds. but the surface features of such damage are that of scuffing >>> and surface tearing - classic lube failure. mine is that of hard >>> particle abrasion - very obvious difference. i'd invite you over to >>> inspect personally, but i don't think your objective is that of discovery >>> >>> >>>> -jim >>> you really have to learn not to bullshit about stuff you don't know. or >>> not to deny reality when it's presented to you with history and photo >>> evidence. >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> as you know if you have experience of this stuff, >>>>> for that surface with those same marks to persist this long, without >>>>> being scuffed off as normally happens, is a truly extraordinary >>>>> testament to a superior lubricant. >>>>> >>>>> google this group for a longer write-up i posted a while ago. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> nomina rutrum rutrum >>>
From: Michael on 5 Apr 2010 12:18 On Apr 5, 9:08 am, jim beam <m...(a)privacy.net> wrote: > On 04/05/2010 08:59 AM, Michael wrote: > > > > > On Apr 3, 10:08 am, jim beam<m...(a)privacy.net> wrote: > >> On 04/01/2010 03:32 PM, Michael wrote: > > >>> On Apr 1, 3:06 pm, n...(a)wt.net wrote: > >>>> On Apr 1, 1:56 pm, Michael<mrdarr...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > >>>>> On Mar 29, 5:41 pm, jim beam<m...(a)privacy.net> wrote: > > >>>>>>http://www.dtsc.ca.gov/TechnologyDevelopment/OPPTD_FLY_High-Efficienc... > > >>>>>> shock, horror, they used oil analysis to arrive at these recommendations! > > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> nomina rutrum rutrum > > >>>>> Interesting point: "The HE filters used in this study claimed > >>>>> filtration of particles to 1-2 [microns], much better than standard > >>>>> filters of 30-50 [microns]. Using standard filters is one reason that > >>>>> motor oil needs to be changed; it gets dirty with small particles > >>>>> which results in engine wear. In this regard, standard filters have > >>>>> not improved over the years compared to significant improvements in > >>>>> motor oil quality. The oil change interval set in warranties is a > >>>>> result of standard filters being the limiting factor, not the motor > >>>>> oil quality. Hence, higher quality filters will help to extend motor > >>>>> oil life to its full potential." > > >>>> The smaller the particle the filter traps, the quicker it is going to > >>>> clog up. > >>>> Also, until you get to a point of saturation, the size of the > >>>> particles missed > >>>> by a "standard" filter are not large enough to do much engine wear. > >>>> I'm fairly anal about my vehicle, but I don't use filters that trap > >>>> very fine > >>>> particles. I use regular old standard filters. They are less prone to > >>>> being > >>>> clogged. And if that happens the bypass kicks in and you have no > >>>> filtering at all. > > >>>>> This raises the question: would it be safe to keep engine oil for > >>>>> 10,000 miles if you replace JUST the oil filter every 5,000 miles? > > >>>> It would depend on the service. If it's all highway miles, maybe.. > >>>> If not, pretty risky.. :( > > >>>>> Is an HE filter necessary? Oil analysis comparisons of the HE Fram X2 > >>>>> filter vs. a normal CarQuest filter would have been nice. > > >>>> I think it's a waste of money, and also not the greatest idea as I > >>>> have already touched on. > > >>>>> Maybe I can do an experiment with my '96 Camry (176k miles). For my > >>>>> wife's car, the 5,000 mile oil change will remain... > > >>>> If your Camry has 176k miles on it, you are probably doing something > >>>> right. Why change? :/ > > >>>> Myself, I use regular standard filters, half decent oil, "castrol > >>>> syntec blend", > >>>> and I change it every 5k miles like the manual and the blinky light > >>>> on > >>>> the dashboard says. I'm not a fan of "extended oil change skeds". > >>>> The purpose of changing the oil and filter is to remove the dirt, > >>>> acids, > >>>> moisture, and whatever else, and to replenish the additives in the > >>>> oil. > >>>> I'm not going much past 5k in any of my vehicles, and I don't care > >>>> what anyone thinks about it. My older trucks actually get dirtier > >>>> after 5k miles than my newer Corolla. It's so clean burning it is > >>>> really > >>>> not that bad after 5k.. But I change it anyway. Cheap insurance. > >>>> I don't use synth blend in the trucks though.. Just regular dino oil... > >>>> I only use the synth blend in the Corolla as extra insurance against > >>>> the dreaded gelling problem. Again, the extra cost is cheap insurance > >>>> the way I see it. > > >>> Ok, thanks for the info. Good points all around. Maybe the car can > >>> go longer on multiple filters, but 5k miles is long enough. My use > >>> might even qualify as "severe" come to think of it... mixed city/ > >>> highway driving. > > >>> Was using Castrol regular 10W-30, thinking of putting in regular Mobil > >>> 5W-30 for better fuel economy next change due in ~900 miles. > > >>> Thanks, > > >>> Michael > > >> ok, if mobil will go 20k miles per actual usage:http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024(a)N00/4291579733/ > > >> will you still change it at 5k? > > >> -- > >> nomina rutrum rutrum > > > I was thinking of extending the interval, but when I looked for an oil > > change interval in my manual I couldn't find one (!?) Haynes > > specifies a 3000 mile interval for both the '96 and '99. > > > Funny how Mobil doesn't say extended intervals are ok... > > yes they do - they specifically give mileages for the following: > clean 5000 > clean 7500 > m1 extended performance - 15000. > > > > > I guess I'll just replace oil and filter at 5k... > > -- > nomina rutrum rutrum Weird... my Wal Mart Mobil 1 didn't seem to specify. Maybe if I read the Spanish translation... :o Michael
From: jim beam on 5 Apr 2010 12:42 On 04/05/2010 09:13 AM, dr_jeff wrote: > jim wrote: >> >> dr_jeff wrote: >> >>> How does antifreeze interrupt the oil film? Does it act like a soap, >>> dissolving it? >> >> Actually the detergents and dispersants "act like soap" and have the >> effect of keeping all sorts of stuff in solution in the oil - including >> antifreeze. This works as long as the additives aren't overwhelmed with >> too much "stuff". Acts like soap means its similar but a bit >> different. In the case of >> washing your hands the solvent is the water. Oil is a different type of >> solvent, different soap, but the same general idea. > > Apparently, glycol is even nastier for oil than I suspected: > http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/193/oil-glycol. > > It chemically reacts with different things, doesn't dissolve well in oil > and makes acid. yeah, it agglomerates soot particles to Hrc >50 too. not. > > Jeff > > >>> I imagine alcohol or hand sanitizer (which 60% ethanol) >>> does the same thing. Just like soap disrupts the oil film or whatever on >>> my hands when I wash after checking the oil? >> >> >> >>> Jeff >>> >>>> particularly on cams at low >>>> speeds. but the surface features of such damage are that of scuffing >>>> and surface tearing - classic lube failure. mine is that of hard >>>> particle abrasion - very obvious difference. i'd invite you over to >>>> inspect personally, but i don't think your objective is that of >>>> discovery >>>> >>>> >>>>> -jim >>>> you really have to learn not to bullshit about stuff you don't know. or >>>> not to deny reality when it's presented to you with history and photo >>>> evidence. >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> as you know if you have experience of this stuff, >>>>>> for that surface with those same marks to persist this long, without >>>>>> being scuffed off as normally happens, is a truly extraordinary >>>>>> testament to a superior lubricant. >>>>>> >>>>>> google this group for a longer write-up i posted a while ago. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> nomina rutrum rutrum >>>> -- nomina rutrum rutrum
From: jim on 5 Apr 2010 12:44
jim beam wrote: > > > > So what? > > I mean, it makes you look like an idiot, but other than that it doesn't > > contradict what I said. > > yes it does contradict what you said. you were supposing this was > typical lube failure and wear. it's not. Incorrect. The only thing I supposed is that you are an idiot. And everything you say only strengthens that supposition. I specifically stated i was not supposing anything about the engine. The cause of your damage is undefined. I was just pointing out that other engines can get damage that looks just like that. It may surprise you, but scratches like this on the cam lobes don't only happen when some idiot takes the head off and pours dirt on it and puts it back together. > > bullshit. hard particles don't make it past the filter [ignoring of > course that your "antifreeze agglomeration" doesn't exist]. Even according to your story. There were hard particles that did damage before the filter could remove them. And I didn't say the antifreeze agglomerates. I said the dirt that is being held in suspension agglomerates as a result of the introduction of antifreeze into dirty oil. This isn't that hard a concept to test. just pour a small amount of antifreeze into our oil about 10 miles before your next oil change. > > You seem to be of the impression that nobody has noticed all the lies > > that you have been caught telling. You seem to be laboring under the > > impression that you are like the Pope and just because you say it there > > will be others who will automatically accept it is true. > > wow dude, you really have a reality/ignorance problem. Yeah well your not the first person ever to call not believing in the infallibility of the pope a "reality/ignorance problem". |