Toyota Corolla May Be Recalled over Steering Problem
in [Technical]
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From: Tegger on 23 Feb 2010 12:37 "C. E. White" <cewhite3(a)mindspring.com> wrote in news:hm10jv$l11$1 @news.eternal-september.org: > > "Tegger" <invalid(a)invalid.inv> wrote in message > news:Xns9D266703A760Ategger(a)208.90.168.18... > >> As the AP article clearly states--numerous times--these are ALLEGED >> to have >> involved mechanical malfunction. >> >> Since 2000, not ONE of those 34 deaths has been PROVEN by the NHTSA >> to have >> been the result of ANY kind of mechanical malfunction. >> >> People die in road accidents in the US approximately 40,000 times >> per year, >> the vast bulk of those being caused by simple human error. Those 34 >> deaths >> are unlikely to be any different from the other 40,000. > > > The flaw in your argument is obvious. How do we know that any accident > is related to a mechanical failure? We only know because 1) of an > accident investigation that finds a cause, or 2) because someone in > the car survived and told us what happened. The argument is not mine; it is AP's. <snip> > > > > Saying things like "not ONE of those 34 deaths has been PROVEN by the > NHTSA to have been the result of ANY kind of mechanical malfunction" > is not meaningful (and not true, since I think even you have to agree > that the CA incident involved pedal entrapment). The CA incident also involved floor mats that were 1) unsecured, and 2) wrong for the vehicle. The previous driver of the car in the CA incident had reported a stuck pedal to the dealership's receptionist when he returned the vehicle. This driver did what the cop did not do: He simply held the pedal down until the car stopped, then used the toe of his shoe to pull the pedal back up again to stop the engine from overrevving. If anybody's at fault for the CA incident, it's the dealership, which appears to have been astonishingly negligent in their failure to deal with some very important information related by the previous driver. > Dead people can't > tell what happened, and none of the alleged vehicle speed control > problem can easily be consistently diagnosed after the crash. You don't need people to tell you what happened; you can use proxy evidence. For example, the sole purpose of police and insurance crash- investigation teams, or of arson squads, is to reconstruct an incident and determine the cause of it. They're remarkably accurate. > The only > thing we can go on is the information provided by people that survived > Toyota crashes. Many of those incidents are alleged to have been > caused by vehicle speed control problems. This clearly implies that > some percentage of the fatal crashes also involved vehicle speed > control problems. > That is the allegation, yes. And a big chunk are statistically extremely likely to be simple driver error. -- Tegger
From: C. E. White on 23 Feb 2010 15:37 "Tegger" <invalid(a)invalid.inv> wrote in message news:Xns9D288073A8A6Dtegger(a)208.90.168.18... >> thing we can go on is the information provided by people that >> survived >> Toyota crashes. Many of those incidents are alleged to have been >> caused by vehicle speed control problems. This clearly implies that >> some percentage of the fatal crashes also involved vehicle speed >> control problems. >> > > > > That is the allegation, yes. And a big chunk are statistically > extremely > likely to be simple driver error. Right, but don't you think vehicle behavior that increases the likelyhood of a driver error causing an accident is a defect? The whole arguement against SUVs put forth by some was that they were defective becasue they were more likely to roll if a driver made a mistake. It is hard to draw a line between dangerous characteristics that can be rightly called a defect and ones that can be written off as "driveability" issues. I can buy slow to respond throttles as a drivability issue (anyone who drove an Autin-Healey Sprite understands slow to respond throttles). A stuck accelerator pedal or a vehicle that suddenly accelerates for undetermined reasons is over the line. I think Toyota realized there were UA "concerns" in 2007 (or before). Maybe the people in charge at Toyota truly believed these were merely "drivability issues" and therefore felt justified in dismissing them. I can sort of excuse Toyotas for this, assuming the former NHTSA employees working for Toyota didn't use undo influence to get the investigations closed. I do think NHTSA was wrong to so easily close the investigations. I also think the people in the Toyota governement relations group were idiots for preparing a PowerPoint Presentation that claimed credit for squashing the investigations. Just to satisfy the doemstic vehcile haters - I understand millions and millions of domestic vehicle have been recalled for defects. I can't see how this excuses Toyota. And I don't think this is an isolated incident. This is not the first "concern" Toyota has tried to sweep under the rug. It is part of the Toyota industrial culture. I understand this and it has not stopped me from recommending some Toyota vehicles to family members. I have not been particualrly worried about UA when I drive a Toyota. And I have told my freinds and family that I wouldn't worry - just don't panic. Maybe NHTSA should have Toyota send out a sticker. Something like: IMPORTANT SAFETY PRECAUTION Before starting the car, you should always : 1) make sure the gear selector lever is engaged in Park 2) set the parking brake fully 3) make sure your seat belt is fastened. Unexpected and possibly sudden vehicle movement may occur if these precautions are not taken. If you experience a sudden unintended vehicle acceleration even you should: 1) press firmly on the brake 2) move the shift control to neutral 3) ss the vehicle slows pull off the road 4) call you personal injury lawyer and sue somebody Refer to your owners manual. for other important safety information. Ed
From: Clive on 23 Feb 2010 18:39 In message <hm11ga$tb1$1(a)news.eternal-september.org>, C. E. White <cewhite3(a)mindspring.com> writes > Toyota's whole business was based on >Japanese government funding and the exclusion of foreign competition >from the Japanese market. You really are a basket case. You've been told ,I can't count just how many times, that the average Japanese person wants a car smaller than two litres and no one in America makes one. I've pointed out to you that it's illegal to own a car in Japan unless you own a parking space, what's more others have pointed out that fuel is about five times the cost it is in the US. You're just plain thick, or as someone from your side of the pond put it "Stoooooopid. -- Clive.
From: Clive on 23 Feb 2010 18:56 In message <hm0t51$iqt$1(a)news.eternal-september.org>, C. E. White <cewhite3(a)mindspring.com> writes > For a Ford with factory cruise >since at least in the early 90s the cruise has the following >deactivation modes - the brake pedal switch (incorporated with the >brake light switch), the off switch on steering wheel, a function that >turns off the cruise control if the vehicles speed drops more than a >few mph below the set point, and that brake line switch. The brake >line switch is a normally closed switch that is opened by brake >pressure. It is not just an indicator, it physically cuts the power >feed to the cruise control. No power, not cruise control activation. My Toyota's cruise control can either be switched of at the steering wheel or by just touching either the brake or clutch peddles. A woman on American TV today testified that her Lexus just accelerated away, despite which gear she used, including neutral, reverse and park, either she's lying through her teeth or the car had a very weird AT. -- Clive.
From: AZ Nomad on 23 Feb 2010 19:14
On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 23:56:43 +0000, Clive <clive(a)yewbank.demon.co.uk> wrote: >In message <hm0t51$iqt$1(a)news.eternal-september.org>, C. E. White ><cewhite3(a)mindspring.com> writes >> For a Ford with factory cruise >>since at least in the early 90s the cruise has the following >>deactivation modes - the brake pedal switch (incorporated with the >>brake light switch), the off switch on steering wheel, a function that >>turns off the cruise control if the vehicles speed drops more than a >>few mph below the set point, and that brake line switch. The brake >>line switch is a normally closed switch that is opened by brake >>pressure. It is not just an indicator, it physically cuts the power >>feed to the cruise control. No power, not cruise control activation. >My Toyota's cruise control can either be switched of at the steering >wheel or by just touching either the brake or clutch peddles. > A woman on American TV today testified that her Lexus just >accelerated away, despite which gear she used, including neutral, >reverse and park, either she's lying through her teeth or the car had a >very weird AT. and somebody cut her brake lines, wired the ignition to short on, disabled both tranny and brake safety switches... Then undid all the damage including replacing the brake lines and lost fluid on the wrecked car while nobody was looking. No way it could be a fool confusing the pedals like all those cases of unintended acceleration on audis before audi put in the interlock. |