Monbiot on speed cameras and the real war
in [UK Drivers]
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From: Tony Raven on 30 Jul 2010 14:45 Adrian wrote: > Tony Raven <traven(a)gotadsl.co.uk> gurgled happily, sounding much like they > were saying: > >> And wasn't the 70mph limit first introduced in 1965 because of a series >> of massive motorway pileups in foggy weather? > > Umm, would you like to think about that one for a moment...? Not really. The Times: November 25th 1965 70 M.P.H. Limit For Four Months From Our Motoring Correspondent A temporary speed limit of 30 m.p.h. is to be put on Britain's 350 miles of motorways during bad weather-fog. ice or snow-and an experimental 70 m.p.h. limit will be imposed on all unrestricted roads, including motorways, for four months, starting just before Christmas and ending after Easter. Announcing the move in the Commons yesterday, Mr. Fraser, Minister of Transport, said: " I am sorry this experiment has been virtually forced on us by the behaviour of an irresponsible minority of drivers who are a danger both to themselves and to everyone else. But if it is a life-saver it will be worthwhile." Mr Fraser, at a heated press conference later, conceded that this could be the beginning of a permanent overall speed limit in Britain. -- Tony " I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong." Bertrand Russell
From: Matt B on 30 Jul 2010 14:55 On 30/07/2010 19:45, Tony Raven wrote: > Adrian wrote: >> Tony Raven <traven(a)gotadsl.co.uk> gurgled happily, sounding much like >> they >> were saying: >> >>> And wasn't the 70mph limit first introduced in 1965 because of a series >>> of massive motorway pileups in foggy weather? >> >> Umm, would you like to think about that one for a moment...? > > Not really. Only a politician would assume that because an accident happened in fog, that a good-weather speed limit was required - and that that limit should be set at a value that could barely be achieved by most cars on the road! -- Matt B
From: Matt B on 30 Jul 2010 15:21 On 30/07/2010 19:21, Tony Raven wrote: > Matt B wrote: >> >> What do you think would happen to traffic speeds and casualty rates if >> car drivers didn't assume (and weren't given) right of way over all >> traffic emerging from each and every side road and driveway or over >> all pedestrians and cyclists who wanted to cross as they drove along a >> road? > > Wasn't that how it was in 1935 when 30mph speed limits in built up areas > first came into effect? No, by then we had already started using the disastrous priority system that we still use today, and which is one of the biggest reasons that they had, and we still have, so many crashes. > And wasn't it occasioned by alarm at the number > of pedestrian road deaths (about 3,500, most of them in built up areas)? Yes, they didn't realise that, by the use of kerbs and other devices, giving motorists (and they were grateful for it) de-facto priority on the road, was the real cause of the problem. Motorists were simply lulled into assuming that peds would wait for them to pass - and especially because peds were told to wait. > And wasn't the 70mph limit first introduced in 1965 because of a series > of massive motorway pileups in foggy weather? Yes, in the days before barriers and before many cars could actually achieve 70 mph, let alone brake quickly and safely from it. > It seems the speed limits are there specifically because motorists > failed to drive at a safe speed for the conditions No, they are there because of the serious flaw which revealed itself after giving motorists absolute priority, in the absence of other signs, lines or signals, between the kerbs - they came to assume that it would/could not be violated. Most crashes are as a result of that priority not actually being given (by mistake or by carelessness). The priority system that we have adopted relies on 100% human infallibility for it to work and for our streets to remain safe. -- Matt B
From: Tony Raven on 30 Jul 2010 15:20 Matt B wrote: > On 30/07/2010 19:45, Tony Raven wrote: >> Adrian wrote: >>> Tony Raven <traven(a)gotadsl.co.uk> gurgled happily, sounding much like >>> they >>> were saying: >>> >>>> And wasn't the 70mph limit first introduced in 1965 because of a series >>>> of massive motorway pileups in foggy weather? >>> >>> Umm, would you like to think about that one for a moment...? >> >> Not really. > > Only a politician would assume that because an accident happened in fog, > that a good-weather speed limit was required - and that that limit > should be set at a value that could barely be achieved by most cars on > the road! > There had been several big motorway pile-ups (some of which I remember well and one of which my father was involved in) caused by motorists bowling into think fog banks without slowing down. Hence the 30mph when foggy limit and the flashing motorway lights to go with it. The reason for the 70mph limit was probably because it was generally uncontentious because many drivers couldn't exceed that speed. But those that could were causing the problem with cars clocked up to 150mph and drivers trying to race the new high speed train along the M1. I seem to recall unofficial races being held up the M1 to Watford Gap and back. -- Tony " I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong." Bertrand Russell
From: Matt B on 30 Jul 2010 15:46
On 30/07/2010 20:20, Tony Raven wrote: > Matt B wrote: >> On 30/07/2010 19:45, Tony Raven wrote: >>> Adrian wrote: >>>> Tony Raven <traven(a)gotadsl.co.uk> gurgled happily, sounding much like >>>> they >>>> were saying: >>>> >>>>> And wasn't the 70mph limit first introduced in 1965 because of a >>>>> series >>>>> of massive motorway pileups in foggy weather? >>>> >>>> Umm, would you like to think about that one for a moment...? >>> >>> Not really. >> >> Only a politician would assume that because an accident happened in >> fog, that a good-weather speed limit was required - and that that >> limit should be set at a value that could barely be achieved by most >> cars on the road! > > There had been several big motorway pile-ups (some of which I remember > well and one of which my father was involved in) caused by motorists > bowling into think fog banks without slowing down. Hence the 30mph when > foggy limit and the flashing motorway lights to go with it. Yes, and not that bad an idea. > The reason for the 70mph limit was probably because it was generally > uncontentious because many drivers couldn't exceed that speed. Possibly, but not exactly a sound basis for such a restriction. > But those > that could were causing the problem with cars clocked up to 150mph and > drivers trying to race the new high speed train along the M1. "Problems" as in tabloid and populist outrage, yes. And that still happens today. If the wind is in the right direction, I live within earshot of such a road, and we frequently hear screaming engines whooshing along at extreme speeds at night, so that still happens. > I seem to > recall unofficial races being held up the M1 to Watford Gap and back. That didn't stop either in 1965. The M25 provided an ideal circuit for such events after completion in the late 1980s. Wikipedia suggests that sub-one-hour lap times were achieved - thus average speeds of over 117 mph. -- Matt B |