The fragility of car computers revealed.
in [UK Drivers]
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From: Tony Dragon on 24 May 2010 13:33 Adrian wrote: > Doug <jagmad(a)riseup.net> gurgled happily, sounding much like they were > saying: > >>>>> A car computer doesn't fail or crash and leave the driver with no >>>>> control. > >>>> How do you know? Source? > >>> Because it's a requirement of type approval that the systems must "fail >>> safe" - there must be a purely physical/mechanical connection that >>> ensures that the vehicle can still be steered, and there must be two >>> separate hydraulic circuits that ensure that the vehicle can still be >>> braked. > >> Again, source? > >>> Even if the vehicle's battery fell out of the bottom, you could still >>> steer and brake. > >> Source? > > Construction & Use regs. They're not online in their entirety, though. Doug is not familiar with those regs, his e-bike does not comply. -- Tony Dragon
From: The Medway Handyman on 24 May 2010 15:54 Doug wrote: > On 24 May, 11:37, Adrian <toomany2...(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> Doug <jag...(a)riseup.net> gurgled happily, sounding much like they >> were saying: >> >>>> A car computer doesn't fail or crash and leave the driver with no >>>> control. >>> How do you know? Source? >> >> Because it's a requirement of type approval that the systems must >> "fail safe" - there must be a purely physical/mechanical connection >> that ensures that the vehicle can still be steered, and there must >> be two separate hydraulic circuits that ensure that the vehicle can >> still be braked. >> > Again, source? >> >> Even if the vehicle's battery fell out of the bottom, you could still >> steer and brake. >> > Source? Getting desperate now. -- Dave - intelligent enough to realise that a push bike is a kid's toy, not a viable form of transport.
From: Marie on 24 May 2010 17:12 On May 21, 7:35 am, webreader <websiterea...(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > On May 21, 7:17 am, Doug <jag...(a)riseup.net> wrote: > > > > > Is it any wonder that so many cars crash because of faults and put > > cyclists and pedestrian lives at risk? Isn't it time to go back to > > mechanical control, which sensibly is still used on bicycles? > > > "The computer systems used to control modern cars are very vulnerable > > to attack, say experts. > > > An investigation by security researchers found the systems to be > > "fragile" and easily subverted. > > > The researchers showed how to kill a car engine remotely, turn off the > > brakes so the car would not stop and make instruments give false > > readings. > > > Despite their success, the team said it would be hard for malicious > > attackers to reproduce their work..." > > > "...It is thought that modern vehicles have about 100 megabytes of > > binary code spread across up to 70 ECUs..." > > > Horrifying! So anything can happen when there is a glitch? > > > More:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/10119492.stm > > > -- > > UK Radical Campaigns.http://www.zing.icom43.net > > A driving licence is a licence to kill. > > "The team got at the ECUs via the communications ports fitted as > standard on most cars that enable mechanics to gather data about a > vehicle before they begin servicing or repair work." > > This team of experts has found that if you access the computors comms > port, you can control the computor, now who would have thought that? > > WSR Found these quotes at http://www.physorg.com/wire-news/35299025/experimental-security-analysis-of-a-modern-car.html "how much resilience a conventional automobile has against a digital attack mounted against its internal components by an attacker with access to the car's internal network. " "Should car owners be concerned? We believe that car owners today should not be overly concerned at this time. It requires significant sophistication to develop the capabilities described in our paper and we are unaware of any attackers who are even targeting automobiles at this time." WSR
From: Adrian on 24 May 2010 17:14 Marie <marie.lawrie(a)yahoo.co.uk> gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying: > by an attacker with access to the car's internal network. " ^^^^ the important bit. An "attacker" with access to the vehicle has always had the ability to cause more substantial problems than fiddling with the instruments. Just slacken off the brake pipes, f'rinstance.
From: Doug on 25 May 2010 00:51
On 24 May, 11:50, Adrian <toomany2...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Doug <jag...(a)riseup.net> gurgled happily, sounding much like they were > saying: > > >> >> The other thing to consider is the major difference between > >> >> dedicated embedded computers and generic PCs. PCs mostly crash due > >> >> to user error, primarily in the installation (often unintentional) > >> >> of poor-quality software. With embedded systems, that's not an > >> >> option - when did your washing machine, fridge or freeview box last > >> >> crash? > >> > Freeview boxes quite often. > >> Really? If so, then I suspect it's an aged one that's experiencing > >> hardware issues. > > Yes everything becomes aged with time, including car computers. You > > never can tell when they might pack up. At least with a Freeview box it > > doesn't happen when you are doing 70 or more on a motorway. > > Of course, that ignores (what a surprise...) the very different standards > of hardware build quality for a controller intended for a 10-20yr service > life in a hostile environment and a disposable bit of cheap consumer tat. > > Anyway, even if it does, you'll just glide gently to a halt safely on the > hard shoulder. > Despite being in the fast lane and having to cross over in heavy traffic with no brakes and no engine? Or, coast to a stop to remain in the fast lane in heavy traffic? Glad it will never happen to me. > > >> > and my little fridge is not computer controlled. > >> Then it'll be ancient and hugely inefficient. > > No its quite recent and efficient and only needs a thermostat and not a > > computer. > > Then it will most certainly have embedded control electronics. > What for? It only needs the thermostat to switch the motor on and off? -- UK Radical Campaigns. http://www.zing.icom43.net A driving licence is a licence to kill. |